Bishops, Bullet, and Bobby Fischer: Daniel Lona Interviewed By Omar Mills, Part II

120 Daniel Lona is interviewed by guest host Omar Mills, fellow club player, in the second part of a special episode celebrating The Chess Experience podcast's third anniversary.

Three years ago, Daniel Lona launched The Chess Experience with a simple yet unique mission: to create chess content by and for adult improvers - a rare thing in the chess world at that time. 

In this episode, he discusses:

• What makes chess "real"? Is a 3-minute blitz game fundamentally the same as a 5-hour classical battle?
• Finding a balance between growing chess through Esports vs preserving traditional formats.
• Daniel’s #1 chess wish (and all of his answers to the rapid-fire questions he asks his guests.)

PLUS: Get a chance to win Omar Mills' new Chessable course (with full video) this week: "Chess Destiny: Lessons from an Adult Improver and His Coach.”

Get info on how to enter to win by following Daniel Lona on Twitter.

How You Can Support the Pod:

Join this show’s Patreon called “Podcast Perks” and get benefits like: 

• Submitting questions to guests
• A shout-out of your name on the pod
• Vote on future topics/guests 
• Exclusive behind-the-scenes updates about the show
• DM me any month for a brief chat on chess or episodes

Click here to join the Patreon for The Chess Experience.

Or you can…

>>Support this pod by grabbing a chess.com membership which will help you improve your chess & defeat your enemies. A small portion will fund this pod - and every bit helps! Just click this link.

>> Neither? How about checking out Daniel's chess.com profile? Witness his countless, embarrassing blitz losses. He even accepts some friend requests. (Ad)

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Show Sponsor
• 3:26 Episode 120: Interview with Daniel Lona
• 5:16 Chess Celebrities and Personal Connections
• 9:35 Esports Chess: Good for the Game?
• 20:12 Rapid Fire Questions Begin
• 22:48 Playing Style and Favorite Openings
• 31:06 Chess Content Creators and Legends
• 38:08 Chess Study Methods and Ultimate Wish
• 46:09 The Universality of Chess
• 52:21 Closing Thoughts and Gratitude

Transcript

Daniel: 0:05

Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show. It's all about helping adult improvers. I want to make learning chess easier for you to navigate and I also want you to have a more fun experience along the way. I'm your host, daniel Lona, a fellow chess amateur. Let's get to it.

Daniel: 0:25

This show is sponsored by chesscom, the world's largest chess community. One of chesscom's most popular features is called Game Review. This feature weaves together a lot of benefits. In one post-game analysis, for example, you can see how accurately you played, whether you made any moves that were deemed brilliant or great, which makes me feel a lot better about my chess when I get one of those. How accurately you played, whether you made any moves that were deemed brilliant or great, which makes me feel a lot better about my chess when I get one of those. And Game Review also offers a virtual coach that gives insights on every move. It'll also show you alternate lines that would have been better for you to help you understand how you can improve your game. So go on chesscom, play a game and try out the Game Review.

Daniel: 1:02

Welcome to this week's show. This is part two of the previous episode, number 119, where Omar Mills interviews me about this podcast in honor of its third anniversary. I split our chat over two episodes because we had a pretty long conversation and I thought it would be kinder to attention spans to make it into two episodes. Now you don't have to have listened to the other one first or at all, but I think it all flows better and ties together better if you listen to part one and then part two, which is this one that you're about to hear, and we definitely cover some interesting topics in this episode, including should chess grow its numbers through faster time controls in an exclusively online setting? Is chess the same game, whether it's bullet or classical? Plus, I answer the same rapid fire questions that I ask my guests, which leads us down a discussion of some interesting chess topics that I didn't expect.

Daniel: 1:58

Also, I have a bit of news regarding my guest host, omar Mills, who's a fellow adult improver. He just released his first chessable course right after we recorded this episode, which I think is pretty amazing. I love when I hear about an adult improver, an adult club player, getting the opportunity to release a course. I think that's a great direction for our community and I'm super proud of him. Plus, you can have a chance to win the full video course for free. His course is called Chess Destiny Lessons from an Adult Improver and His Coach. There's a link to check out all the details about it in the show notes, but briefly I'll tell you that it's a course that'll help you with a better mindset toward the game and your improvement journey, a plan on how to study and some advice on how to approach learning from your mistakes.

Daniel: 2:48

It's aimed at folks rated between 400 and 1100. To get the details on how to win a free copy of this full video course, just follow me on Twitter. My username is lona underscore chess, and there's a link in the show notes to my Twitter account directly. All right, so let's dive into the second half of my conversation with Omar, where he interviews me about this podcast. The interview picks up where Omar asked me which of my guests I'd love to hang out with. I really love, overall, the second half of our conversation here, because we dive into some deeper topics about the game that I don't think I've really talked much about at all on this show with anyone. I hope you enjoy it now.

Daniel: 3:29

You asked another question, though, too, which is just to hang out with yes yeah, okay, so that that's kind of similar to my and one of the questions that I have, like in my rapid fire questions, right, yeah, that's, that's tough. I feel like I should come up with. I've talked about a lot of the names, the same names, a lot Okay.

Omar: 3:49

If you want to put any of those that are, you know, it doesn't mean that you can play them or not play them, but you can interview them and then have dinner with them. You know, like maybe you're talking about know them as human beings you know even more so. So it's a. You could have people you know on both sides of that list. Nothing wrong with that.

Daniel: 4:11

Yeah, it's hard to say, it's hard to pick one right, because it's just like everybody I've talked about I would want to hang out with.

Omar: 4:16

You want to hang out with? Yeah.

Daniel: 4:17

Yeah, let me name one though. Okay, it overlaps, but I'll go with Robert Hess again. I don't know, sometimes you just feel like you connect and you're like on the same vibe with somebody. I just feel that with him I feel like we're similar personalities or something, or there's enough overlap there that we could really connect and so, yeah, I would just love to talk chess with him all night. That'll be amazing.

Omar: 4:38

Let me expand that a bit, man, and ask you this Out of everybody that you've had, a chance to interview so far for your show.

Omar: 4:50

If you could pick one person out of that list to become your personal friend, you could talk to them anytime. They're your friend for life, lifelong friend. Who would it be? And here's the thing I'm'm gonna give you this too. If you want to push on that and say I don't want to answer that because I don't want to leave anybody out, I give you. I give you, I give you space to be able to do that because I get that that.

Omar: 5:16

That is a that's a tough ask because you've interviewed a lot of cool people yeah, see, I try to.

Daniel: 5:20

I want to keep it interesting by mentioning someone I haven't mentioned, but I, I feel like this is going to come back.

Omar: 5:25

No, you can. You can, absolutely can.

Daniel: 5:26

Yeah, okay, so this won't be a fresh name, that I haven't said. But Jennifer speaking to Jennifer, shahadi speaking to that, that connection quality, like we connect really well, at least I think. So that's like I say about a lot of celebrity, or like celebrities.

Omar: 5:40

I think we can agree right.

Daniel: 5:41

I think we can agree right. Yeah, Like they're my friend, I might not be their friend, but they are my friend. Right. So that's kind of how at least I perceive that we connect well and I think that's what made those episodes really good too. Is that we just I think it's just personality, that's mostly it. I was going to say age, but I think it's really just personality. That is the driver there, because I think we're both inclined to be like positive upbeat you know, want to be excited about stuff.

Daniel: 6:07

I just like that's her and that's how I feel, like I want to be with people too. So, yeah, I mean there's a reason. She's like one of my favorites. So I just got to move to Philadelphia. Because she's in Philadelphia, I went to. Philadelphia, I might have a shot.

Omar: 6:32

I'm not welcome in Philadelphia. I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan. They will run me out of Philly, in fact, actually not now, they probably be, like come, so we can just beat on you In now.

Omar: 6:42

Recently, as we're recording this, there's big money that you know, as, like all the top players are starting to gravitate towards this, and esports is big money. My personal hope is that we start to start to see this expand a little bit and more people will have opportunities to take advantage of some of that opportunities to take advantage of some of that. But, seeing as how it's just getting started and I know that they're trying to make a splash we probably won't see that for a while. I'm just curious to know your thoughts on that. Is it something that you think is good for the game? Do you think that it's like this isn't chess? That's not real chess. It's not this. You have some people that will hate on it, other people who will think that it's great. Curious to know where you land on that and, especially given that you have more of a and a lens on players who are not the top players, who may not ever get invited to do something like esports, where do you land on something like that? What's your, what's your thought?

Daniel: 7:40

yeah, it's tough, I probably. The short answer is I probably have some mixed feelings on it, because generally I'm of the let.

Daniel: 7:48

For whatever reason you know, I love over the board I love classical, I love, you know, traditional tournaments and things like that. And yet you know what? I've come to this place in my own chess journey, where I don't advocate that any person's chess journey be a certain way right, I want them. Want them, you know, like, if they want to go to, if they're an adult like us, only at the club player level, and they want to go for be a title player, they want to become national master, great.

Daniel: 9:27

If you want to you know, study hard three, four hours every day for the next 10 years to get that. I am so excited for it. And also day for the next 10 years to get that, I am so excited for it. And also, if you just want to study 30 minutes a week and play blitz and bullet the rest of the time, awesome, you're, you're one of us. You're, you know, you're a chess person. So I try not to have like a specific definition of what it means to have a chess journey or what you should be.

Daniel: 9:53

There is no should to me right on a chess journey you only should is whatever you create for yourself. That's how I see it, like it's a great way to look at it, whatever form you want it to take.

Daniel: 10:03

Do that. That's so, as someone who has that mentality but also prefers like this, personally prefers like, yeah, the, the classical style, yeah, the board, and then seeing esport, like like there's a little bit of a conflict, you know, because on the one hand, I want to say like let's grow the game, let's let it be whatever it wants to be to people, but there's another part of me that also like that's just, it's not my vision of chess, that's not how I think of chess, like I'm basically just disagreeing with myself at the end of the day, hard, not to.

Omar: 10:35

Given that you want to grow the game, it's. You can't grow the game on your terms not only say grow the game yeah yeah, it's a but. That's not to discredit your terms because they're yours and so they have value. They're a part of the game and that's tough because it's funny.

Omar: 10:54

I got into into a discussion about this on X with a guy earlier today where I was talking about some Blitz games I played and he responded and my opinion it's not even this, isn't even real chess, you know. And my response to that was I found it interesting the subjectivity of how one defines real chess and the way I get into that is the butcher. We were talking about this years ago. And Miles says to me 30 minute games are rapid to me and I'm like wait what? 30 minutes is like a lone wolf, that's like the 30 plus 30 or 30 plus zero or whatever it is. That's a lone wolf game. That's a classical lone wolf game, like that's a classical setting, only chess. What do you mean? 30 minutes is rapid and he's like well, he's like you don't know this because you've never sat for five hours and play. In fact, to this day, the longest I think I've sat is right around three hours for a game you know, and got a leg cramp, like.

Omar: 12:07

That's how uninitiated I am, you know, into that space of super long classical games. But it becomes interesting when you say oh well, based on time control, it speaks to the legitimacy of whether or not it is chess, and that's different for everybody. You know on that. So it's a. It's very, very interesting, you know. But I get where you're coming from because it's got to land with you.

Omar: 12:34

And so when you look at esports, you go that doesn't feel like chess to me, but I get it because I want to see the game grow and if this is what all the kids are doing, okay, well then, by all means I'm not going to tell it to get off my lawn but at the same time get off my lawn Right. Right.

Daniel: 12:50

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I think you know there's two things about that. This is a really fascinating conversation, right Like in terms of like, what do I think of esports? Because it gets to the heart of like a lot of big questions. One of them is, you know, does time control define the game? Does it determine what we're talking about?

Omar: 13:09

Or let me ask you this, daniel If it is time, control, and do you have to have tactile pieces in front of you for it to be chess?

Daniel: 13:17

That second one, I think I can fairly easily answer no Like online. Yeah, it's still chess.

Omar: 13:24

So interesting right Online is still chess. As long as the time control meets the criteria, you will have other people that will say it's not chess unless I can touch a piece in front of me, across from another human. That to them is real chess. But I interrupt you, I apologize.

Daniel: 13:40

That's okay, but it's just interesting.

Omar: 13:42

I would have thought you were especially given your study board and how beautiful it is and how I love to come to. Chicago and steal it from you and make it mine. It's like as a guy who loves the tactile feel and has one of the most beautiful chess sets I've ever seen.

Daniel: 13:57

It's interesting that you would say no, no, no online is fine.

Daniel: 14:00

Well, I definitely prefer over the board, you know, but it's still chess to me, of course, even if it's online. I mean, I'll be honest, most of my studying is online. But as far as the time control thing, that's a really fascinating question because, because you know, we're calling it chess in both instances. But I wonder if chess is sort of unique that way, it really does become a very different game. I mean, think of the contrast of bullet versus a 90 30 classical game. I mean, yes, they're both chess because they operate under the same, then the same rules applies, the same pieces and all that stuff. But it is fascinating how much you change the nature of the game if you go to either extreme of the time control. You know, and I think that goes to the heart of it, it's just like well, it's a different thing. I mean calculation. Calculation is barely even registered if you're doing bullet.

Omar: 14:52

There's not enough time, yeah.

Daniel: 14:54

Right. So why are you spending all this time studying calculation or trying to improve that skill, when we're just going to play bullet? Yeah, well, that's my point is like you're at least the studying end of it definitely looks very different if you're just a bullet player versus a classical player, if you just did one or the other. So I do think time control matters a lot and I think that's probably you know a lot of my like, a little bit of unease when it comes to esports, chess being like esport, like that's the direction of growth. It's because it does change the nature of the game.

Omar: 15:24

It's, it's, it's your chess, but it's not the same thing. You're not playing the position, you're playing the person right more than you are anything else. Yeah, and I comes into it.

Daniel: 15:34

Yeah, yeah right and I feel like, to some degree, this is an objective statement. Like you can, I feel like you can prefer chess as an e-sport and you can prefer bowl, and you still probably have to say, well, yeah, this is different than classical. You know what I mean? I don't think the fact that it's different is an opinion. You know it is very different.

Omar: 15:50

Yeah, the only issue I take with it is the the the planting the flag saying this is real versus this is not real because the reason I say that is not because I disagree with it per se. There's a part of me that's like well, no, this is real chess if you, if you don't have to think, is it chess it? That's that that kind of goes against some of the origins of the game it's, in my opinion, yeah it's a, yeah, it's a.

Omar: 16:16

There's to me there's. What makes people great is the when you the fact that they have time to really sit there. But, by the same token, my feeling is that if it's all about that, then just get rid of the clocks. I think I posted that on x. I'm like let's get rid of the clocks and and then I posted that I ran away because that's such a hot take, head explodes.

Daniel: 16:40

Yeah, it's like head explodes.

Omar: 16:42

Because when you factor that up to top players, every game is going to be a draw, if time is never a factor. But then it goes back to what we talked about the minute you add in the addition of time and a time control, where do you, subjectively or objectively, draw the line in the sand and say this is where it becomes real chess. Anything shorter than this is not real chess even though the same rules apply to me. It's just very fascinating.

Daniel: 17:13

You know when you think about it yeah, and I I don't think I personally would ever frame it as real versus not real, like that's too. That's too harsh to me, that's on the side of people who are enjoying what they're enjoying to say that what you enjoy is not real. Like that's, that's me yeah exactly, exactly that.

Omar: 17:27

That, in fact, this was my debate, you know, with my buddy online who was like, and mind you, in his defense he said it's not real chess to me. So he did apply this subjectivity and my response was like it's interesting, the subjectivity of it for these reasons that we're talking about, which is where it becomes fascinating. But I'm not going to take away from him that to him, long, slow positions and positional chess feels like real chess to him, and there's nothing wrong with that chess to him and that, and there's nothing wrong with that at all to me, and there's a part of me that's like inclined to agree. I'm also wondering, if I were better at it, would I be even more inclined?

Daniel: 18:08

I agree. Well, I mean, I'm definitely not going to be a person to say like, let's not grow the game through this, through esports, like that. It's just my own personal enthusiasm for it, you know, is lesser than if you told me like, hey, classical tournaments are blowing up and becoming more popular you know it's even more easy for me to get excited about one versus the other, but you do it if you got invited, what I do you get if you join team liquid.

Omar: 18:35

Now you and magnus are teammates right? Yeah, I'm not daniel lona is liquid, right, would you?

Daniel: 18:43

would you be down? I'm not, I'm not a purist, I just I just, I have preferences.

Omar: 18:49

I'll take anybody's money if they're giving it away. Right, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Daniel: 18:52

Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, no, I'm, I'm not, I'm not like hardcore on my opinions. Yeah, I just uh, I have my preferences and I guess I would just say, like, maybe I would like to see a world where we try to grow the game at all directions and not just I got you.

Daniel: 19:15

Yeah, but I am for finding new ways to do that. You know like we've talked, I think, a couple of times on this show about how much we both like the idea of Pogchamps and we need more things like that. So I mean that's, that's a shorter, you shorter, you know that's. I mean it's a faster time control.

Omar: 19:30

I hear what you're saying, though Not at the expense of classical chess. Like. I don't want classical chess to not have a space. I don't want it to be lost in the shuffle of like. Don't grow the game at the expense of what made the game beautiful to begin with. And I hear you 100% on that Right, right, like, let's.

Daniel: 19:49

let's still try to grow classical tournaments. You know, and and you know, speak to the. You know the awesomeness of classical chess. It does. I don't, yeah, I don't feel like it has to be one or the other, but I guess that would be. My only concern is if we just try to grow the game only on super fast time controls and only online. Yeah, agreed, yeah, so anyway, yeah, that's. That's my long answer to that question.

Omar: 20:12

All right, uh, duman, this has been fantastic. Yeah, I hate that you're going to take your show back from me after we're done with this, but I want to throw some some rapid fire questions at you.

Daniel: 20:26

The ones I asked my guests.

Omar: 20:28

Yeah, exactly yeah, the the now one. Yeah, exactly yeah, Now one that I got here. We literally just talked about, which is, like you've already answered, what your favorite time controller is, so I'm going to take that one out of the mix.

Daniel: 20:39

Okay, Are you specific about that one?

Omar: 20:40

though. Oh, please, please, Absolutely so yeah definitely it's classical but 90-30.

Daniel: 20:45

That's like Really Apex chess for me personally.

Omar: 20:55

I'll do that. For me is yeah, 90, 30 is my absolute favorite way to play the game okay, so that's increment 30 not delay, not playing, oh delays. The delay is is blasphemous. What's wrong with?

Daniel: 21:04

delays. Delay just hurts me well, because it makes it the game harder for me.

Omar: 21:08

So I like it, it's. It's kind of the same thing you get the, you get the seconds.

Daniel: 21:13

No, no, you still get them but I can't, I can't I can't build, so it's just, it's just like clock ticks, but I can't yeah that's hysterical.

Omar: 21:24

Yeah, I need to see the 30 on my clock. I need to see it add to my time.

Daniel: 21:29

I got you yeah, I can build a bigger thing, a stockpile of time that way, yeah, whereas, like, if I'm five seconds into the delay and I move.

Omar: 21:39

I don't get the other 25. Yeah, you don't get the other 25.

Daniel: 21:41

Yeah.

Omar: 21:42

You just move, and then they just, you know their clock starts.

Daniel: 21:46

I don't like things that make the game, for me, than it already is, more than fair. More than fair, okay.

Omar: 21:54

All right, so let me start throwing some of these at you.

Daniel: 21:57

Man, sure Knights or bishops, bishops all the way, really All the way.

Omar: 22:04

Okay, why?

Daniel: 22:05

So, yeah, I got a specific reason for that. People like knights because they're tricky, right, I mean, at least at our level. People like them because they can be. Yeah, but it's a double-edged sword. It's harder for me, too, to to like plan with and find its optimal move and see it in one second or things like that. You know. So like it messes with me too as a player, messes with my opponent just as much as it messes with me, whereas bishops I just it's clean, like I know they don't surprise me as much, I know what I'm doing with them and the bishop pair is just lethal.

Omar: 22:37

So Very, very true. Yeah, does this extend to are you bishops, even in a closed position? Oh well if I have a shot to open it up.

Daniel: 22:53

I'm going it up. I'm gonna try to open it up so your bishops, regardless.

Omar: 22:55

Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm gonna try to open that up.

Daniel: 22:56

Yeah, okay, no, I like it. I like it. I thought you. I thought you might pivot on that, but you're like no, no, closed or open, I want I want bishops, I respect it I'm gonna have to use that with my guests in the future if they pick bishops, yeah, like knights, terrify me the.

Omar: 23:12

To me it depends Just the fact that I even asked you if it's closed. That's how I would answer that. Knights terrify me, but I want them. I will target Bishops. I sacrifice them so much that it's I almost kind of answer my own question. Yeah, I'll sack a bishop for nothing, just to do it, just to open a position up.

Daniel: 23:36

But I'm very much that guy I'm very much crazy with mine, but that's a reason to like bishops, right, it's the Greek dist. That's a fair point. Yeah, it could be the Greek dist, yeah, yeah no, oh, you know what You're right.

Omar: 23:48

All right, I'm over there with you.

Daniel: 23:49

I'm team bishops. You know what? I Team bishops.

Omar: 23:51

yeah, yeah, All right. So what's your favorite opening to play as White Evans Gambit? I?

Daniel: 23:57

think I knew that. You'll see, I'm a Gambit person.

Omar: 24:00

I remember when you started learning that, if I remember correctly, Like that's within the last three years, that's been your opening.

Daniel: 24:10

It has, yeah, for years now.

Omar: 24:12

Yeah, all right, I think I already know the answer to my next one. What's your favorite opening play as black? I think I know that.

Daniel: 24:18

Yeah. So I'm going to split this into two because I forget which GM it was. I had a GM answer it this way and I was like, oh, that's good, Maybe I should do it. But they said they answered it both as against one D4 and against one.

Omar: 24:32

E4. Yes, yes, yes, okay, okay. So it gives you a shot. Yeah, E4, d4. Or let me throw another wrinkle at you if they open with a knight.

Daniel: 24:46

Oh well then I'm just mad. That's fair. I know that's like a solid move, but I don't care.

Omar: 24:52

Listen, I don't know that there's a better response than the one you gave. It's so noncommittal. I was angry. Yeah Right, I was angry. Now that you've done that, commit to an opening. Don't be afraid, put a pawn in the center. Stop this. Put a pawn in the center, pick your pawn it's. D or C? We all know that which of those three pawns.

Daniel: 25:10

Are you moving?

Omar: 25:11

Come on, let's not beat around the bush More than fair.

Daniel: 25:14

Yeah.

Omar: 25:15

I don't like teasing you. All right, E4. One E4. What are you doing?

Daniel: 25:20

Okay, sicilian Sveshnikov, really, yep, yep, no more French. No, french has been gone fora, while what fresh hell is this, sir?

Omar: 25:34

What is this? What blasphemy? Are you saying no, french?

Daniel: 25:39

I still like the French.

Omar: 25:41

Mind you.

Daniel: 25:41

I get excited when people online say they show some love for it. I'm all there for that. I still like the French. It served me well enough.

Omar: 25:50

It served you better than well. It served me well enough. I know firsthand. That's right we played.

Daniel: 25:54

Yeah, I know firsthand how well it served you. Yes, yeah, I remember like it was like move nine or something and you said I don't like any of this.

Omar: 26:02

Yeah, yeah, I was like I don't appreciate anything that you're doing. Yeah, I don't like this.

Daniel: 26:06

Yeah, it's Sveshnikov. Andres told me you know you're going to learn what you need to learn if you play the Sicilian versus the French. He's not wrong yeah.

Omar: 26:18

I abandoned it and I came back to the Sicilian, because it forces you to grow in ways that you don't want to.

Daniel: 26:27

Yeah, yeah no it's super Okay.

Omar: 26:30

So that's for Z4. What about D4? What do you serve?

Daniel: 26:33

up D4. Took me a long time to find the right thing.

Omar: 26:37

You are in good company. Everyone hates to see it. I think I hate that more than I hate the night opening.

Daniel: 26:44

Yeah, D4 is just like why?

Omar: 26:47

Why do you hate us? Why do you hate us both? Yeah, right, exactly.

Daniel: 26:49

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, like I thought, we wanted to play an enjoyable game.

Omar: 26:54

Yeah, enjoyable game. And then you're playing this and you play D4. That's just. Come on, we're club players. I'm not a positional. Come on, I can't be a positional player as a club player. Yeah.

Daniel: 27:06

So the Albin?

Omar: 27:06

counter gambit.

Daniel: 27:07

So yeah, so D4, d5, they play C4, which is like the Queen's Gambit opening typically, and then they play E5, sacking the pawn, if they want to.

Omar: 27:19

Nice, nice. So you're like all right, I see what you're doing and I'm going to open it up anyway.

Daniel: 27:23

Yep, you open it up. Yeah, see, it goes back to that Bishop thing. There's a consistency in my answer here.

Omar: 27:32

Yeah, answer, yeah, I like that.

Daniel: 27:33

I like that because you're gonna like they still want to play positionally, but you're like too bad. Yeah, no, we're not doing any of that. Yeah, you should have played e4, right? Yeah, it would have been a lot easier for you, it'd be a lot easier for both of us.

Omar: 27:41

But no, you did that, and so now, now it's just chess, right? Yeah, exactly, yeah, love it.

Daniel: 27:46

So albin against uh, albin counter against Alvin, countercambit against D4, and then Sicilian against N4.

Omar: 27:54

Now, are you just, if you get somebody who is just I'm going to Fianchetto everything, I'm going to Hypermodern, I'm going to do that Do you just pause in the center, or you do?

Daniel: 28:06

you have anything Okay?

Omar: 28:07

And then you kind of just work it from there.

Daniel: 28:09

Yeah, basically, yeah, I don't have a lot of prep against the Finke kind of openings.

Omar: 28:14

I don't know that you need it. I think it's just more annoying to me than anything else because I don't know what they're going to do. You know, and I play a ton of Blitz so I see quite a bit of hyper-modern openings, you know. So you know, it's just that's why I'm just irritated by it. But it's effective, I'll give them that.

Daniel: 28:30

It is. I know I console myself when they do that. I'm like oh, come on, we're club players and you're going to act like you understand hyper-modern opening theory and then, they proceed to beat me.

Omar: 28:43

I love when I can punish it, though I do. I do. It's just you have to. I find that you have to. You can get out of the opening but you have to.

Omar: 28:57

You can get out of the opening, but you have to be able to think during the middle game and that what they're doing is they're playing things to get you to blunder. But if you don't, then they typically run out of gas and then it's a matter of if we get to an end game, then it's. I find that most of those players who do that have not prepped for end game training and it's a like it's. I will say, say this it's either, or with me, I prep for it, but I mess them up a lot, you know. So it's a, but it's very satisfying when you get them all right. So, in one word, man, how would you describe your playing style?

Daniel: 29:26

you know it's funny, I I started to ask this is a newer question that I started asking my guests and I don't like it. But then it's also like when I have to answer it myself can you answer it?

Omar: 29:35

Can you do? Can you come down to one word? Yeah, right, and I actually want to hear this. I'm curious to know where you're, where you're going to land on this.

Daniel: 29:43

Okay, so this maybe isn't a typical word to describe someone's style, but I'm going with thorough, thorough, now especially when we're talking in a classical game.

Daniel: 29:53

Yeah, I mean it is both my strength and my weakness, because it gets me into time trouble. I'm a little too thorough, more than I need to be. But it's also a strength because it's where I can. If I can get an advantage by the middle game, I often win the game. If I have to go into an end game, I'm usually in time trouble and the person beats me because I'm blundering, Not true. But my thoroughness, like, yeah, I consider more candidate moves, I think, than average at my level. I calculate deeper into lines than is common at my level and that's what I love about chess. I love being able to explore all of that and that, I believe, gives me an edge over my opponents, provided I can get that edge by the middle.

Omar: 30:33

Yeah, provided you have. You have the time that I'm time trouble.

Daniel: 30:37

Yeah, I have time trouble issues, so that's a strength and a weakness, but I think it accurately described. I'm very thorough, like I want to be. I check all my, all my bases, especially after we're out of books. Um, yeah, very thorough in how I put it.

Omar: 30:48

Yeah not sure who's your favorite chess streamer or YouTuber?

Daniel: 30:53

I'm probably not going to go with one of the big celebrity names that we all think of. I'm going to go with Andres Toth, and I'll tell you why.

Omar: 31:01

Solid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should be he should be on the level of everybody that you're talking about.

Daniel: 31:07

Yeah, he absolutely deserves to be. Absolutely deserves to be. He deserves to be a hundred times bigger in terms of like, following numbers. Yeah, because I think she has my favorite balance between the quality improvement advice while also being interesting and entertaining and funny. Yeah, because it's usually more just. I think a lot of people lean towards one more than the other, like it's either like, very just, educational, it's very helpful, but it's not.

Omar: 31:35

You know, it's not gonna be loud, yeah, yeah, or it's just like really funny and entertaining, but it's.

Daniel: 31:40

You're not gonna get any better at chess and I just think that he's just strikes such a good, perfect balance between the two, so that makes him my favorite and just a good dude on top of that very accessible. It's just just a he's.

Omar: 31:51

He's the one person. Coach toth is the one person I I can think of that absolutely obliterated me. When I talk with him in terms of like going over my games and the whole time I'm just laughing. You know, he's like, this is why you're terrible, you know, and I'm like thank you, you know, thank you, coach, he's, yeah, he's awesome.

Daniel: 32:11

I remember one of those and he had one of the funniest analogies ever, and this is not this isn't I make many worse mistakes, but the way he described one of the things, one of your moves that he didn't like, it was just the way he described it was hilarious. He said that you were bringing a frying pan to a nuclear war as your weapon. The frying pan is your weapon in a nuclear war. And I I was just, I could not stop. I don't think I learned. I listened, I heard anything you said after that for like the next minute I was just laughing so much.

Omar: 32:39

Exactly, exactly. That's what I'm talking about.

Daniel: 32:41

Yes, he will make his point in the most hilarious way. You can't even be mad, You're just like you're right to critique you to hear what amazing analogy he's going to come up with.

Omar: 32:54

And what I think is like that's off the hip.

Daniel: 32:56

That's just him off the cuff, he's not planning that, that's just something that stuff just comes to him. That was just natural, that's just how he felt about Moose.

Omar: 33:07

Listen, man, it might be an iron skillet, it may not be, terrible right, I might have that, you don't know.

Daniel: 33:14

Right, exactly, it's a stronger pan than you think. It's a stronger pan than you think you don't know. My life, right, right, yeah. And you burst out laughing too. You can't be mad at the critique when it's that funny. No, you can't be mad, you just have to take the L, and it's that funny.

Omar: 33:31

No, you can't be mad, you just have to take the L. You just have to take it and just say you know what? That's well played, sir.

Daniel: 33:35

Right. And then, when it comes from an IM, how can you disagree?

Omar: 33:37

anyway, you can't, you just take it and you just laugh and you keep it moving.

Daniel: 33:41

That's really all you can do, but it speaks to how good he is Absolutely. Yeah, he's one of the funniest out there.

Omar: 33:51

No, without question, without doubt, yeah.

Daniel: 33:53

Who's your favorite player of all time? This is easy for me. It's always interesting to me how, like I would say, at least half of my guests struggle to answer this question, but not for me. For me this is pretty easy. So it's Bobby Fischer, and I know there's, like always, the asterisk attached to him because you know the personal qualities and all that right right. But as a player and I think I think you might relate to this, omar, because when it's your first, your first favorite, it's hard for someone to stop being your ever.

Daniel: 34:20

stop being your first favorite yeah you know, back in the 90s watching the movie searching for bobby fisher, that movie created such an awesome mystique to him and, like he was the first world champion that I was aware of, just like how you said, magnus yeah, like the first that you get to know.

Omar: 34:35

You can't undo that you can't undo that right, it's just hard, like I know.

Daniel: 34:39

I know there's issues later that I learned about, but but as a player, just purely as a chess player phenomenal. And back to this underdog thing this I'm gonna tie this in. I love when I get a chance to tie something in. Yeah, I love underdogs. And he was like the ultimate underdog Poor kid from Brooklyn takes on and defeats the entire Soviet chess empire. I mean, it's David and Goliath, yeah, and I'm a sucker for that kind of story.

Omar: 35:06

You can't be mad at it, yeah.

Daniel: 35:07

You know, you could argue who's a better player and all that kind of thing, and that'll be debated for all time. I just don't think there's a better story than no david and goliath. You know, it's just. It's incredible and that's why I also put him as my favorite. It's just. I don't know if anyone had odds stacked higher against them to claim the crown than he did. I mean, he had no resources compared to all this. You know, all the great chess, the great Russian chess players, and to just do that some coming from almost nothing, is one of the most inspiring stories. So he'll always be my favorite for that reason.

Omar: 35:40

Love it, Absolutely love it, All right. So he may be the answer to this one. If you could play, all right, I'm going to throw. You know, living or not, you know all time if you could play any of the top players in the world at any time in the timeline, who would it be?

Daniel: 35:57

Oh, that yeah, I mean, if we go anybody, it's going to be the same answer.

Omar: 36:01

It's going to be Fisher.

Daniel: 36:02

Yeah, but if we went living, yeah, if we went living. Yeah, if we went living, I might go with Hikaru.

Daniel: 36:10

Really I think I'll go with Hikaru. Hikaru, like we're talking about firsts again. I think Hikaru was the first for me, like in the modern era, the more recently, like in the past, I guess five years like the first great player of the modern era that I really got to know. There's like almost no one easier to watch than him. Like he's always out there playing, always streaming. I think he was the first person where I saw the genius in action.

Daniel: 36:35

You know, of course everyone's seen like these videos of him where he calculates, puts 80 arrows on the board, and there was just that mystique to him of just like, oh my god, like how does this guy do this? How does he do this? You know, it's just I had never seen someone for whom chess was easier than for karu, and I just love that when, when someone's like this game is easy to me, like obviously we do these next 12 moves, I can't help but admire the hell out of that you know, so yeah, so that's Hikaru because that's like my first sort of modern era yeah, understood all right now.

Omar: 37:06

Would this be the same answer for this, like if you could hang out with any of the any chess celebrity for an evening?

Daniel: 37:11

we may have touched on that, but I'm curious to know, like if you got a different answer for who that might be yeah, I mean, I think I answered jennifer, but let me, since we're asking the question again, let me, let me give another answer.

Daniel: 37:23

Kisparov, really, yeah, okay because I think when I think of like hanging out for an evening, I think of just someone with an interesting personality on top of what they've done in chess, yeah, and I mean I just feel like I listen to him talk forever. He is just one of those people that's so engaging.

Omar: 37:39

Godfather man. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's who he is.

Daniel: 37:43

Right, I mean, he's such a dynamic personality, yeah, and of course, now you're hanging out with a living legend on top of it yeah, so you put the two together. I'm gonna go with kasparov. Love it yeah yeah.

Omar: 37:56

I'm curious to know if he said to you well, you know you're hanging out with kasparov, and he says, daniel, what's your, what's your chess vice? What would you tell him, and would your answer be the same if you were talking to somebody else?

Daniel: 38:11

yeah, it'd probably be the same, I don't be, the same. I can't lie to the legend. I don't want that on my conscience.

Omar: 38:18

I can't mar the experience with that.

Daniel: 38:20

I had a great time except I lied to him once, so my answer to that question, though, would probably be too much opening setting.

Omar: 38:31

But it's weird. Yeah, it's weird because I defend openings why is that bad?

Daniel: 38:35

that's a good question and that's debatable. Whether it's bad because it doesn't help you improve after a certain point, right, like to some degree it does, but then like, if you keep doing it like you get diminishing returns is the idea, but that's an interesting point though, because maybe, just maybe, we should just be doing what we want to do in chess.

Daniel: 38:51

There's that point too, but I think if you want to label it a vice, it's probably that. I mean, if you wanted to name something that I do, it's probably that, because I definitely do it more than people advocate. But I also kind of don't care because I like it. There it is. That's my answer. Yeah, if someone said Dan, you're spending too much time on openings, I would say yep, I know, but I like it.

Omar: 39:14

You know it's funny. I have a similar vice. It's not openings, but it's buying courses on openings.

Daniel: 39:22

Ooh, that's similar, that is yeah that is.

Omar: 39:26

You know, that is my vice. Like cause, I'm always looking for the silver bullet. Well, if I learn this, then I'll know this, and then I'll be able to win all the games, and then nobody will play any of the lines from the course that I just started studying. If you could just upload it to your brain, you'd be yeah, exactly. It works better for white, because you can kind of dictate a little bit. You know, I've had the most success with that, with the Bishops opening.

Omar: 39:52

You know, but I've had the most success with that, with the other bishops opening in terms of studying that and getting some of the main lines down. It really helped me. I didn't realize how wrong I was playing it for so long and then all of a sudden I'm like I got this course, Maybe I should look at it. And then you start playing what's in there, you go oh, I'm winning now. Imagine that it kind of helps to study the thing you paid for you know on that so, but don't ask me how many courses I have, because I have all of them well, you forgot.

Daniel: 40:21

You forgot to mention the most, the strongest, most indefensible argument you have for getting them.

Omar: 40:25

I did that way, you have it that way, yeah, that way, I have it, that way you have absolutely yeah, yeah. That is what can anyone say to that I have run that into the ground so much that people think that I came up with it. I'm like no, no, no, no. That is that was gifted to me by Daniel Lona Stops people in their tracks.

Daniel: 40:43

right yeah, they're like man.

Omar: 40:44

Cause, here's the thing, Cause they're like that's wow, that is true, I wouldn't have it, it's true, yeah, now you do have it if you need it.

Daniel: 40:50

So yeah, all right.

Omar: 40:52

So I think I know the answer to this one. I'm going to ask you anyway, like what is your favorite way to study or work on your chess? I think I know this, though, but I'm curious to see if it's what I'm thinking it is.

Daniel: 41:04

Okay, there's two parts to this.

Omar: 41:06

Okay.

Daniel: 41:06

First part studying an annotated game book. Going through an annotated game okay and then second doing it over the board with my, my nice wooden chess set okay, I had the second part. That that was yeah when you put those two things together. That's my favorite way. It's like it's just so relaxing to me. Yeah, chess isn't often relaxing no, no, it is not no, it's many great things, but it's not relaxing, it's not, yeah, yeah but when you yeah, like you just get like a nice beverage to go with it, it's peaceful.

Daniel: 41:38

Maybe mid-evening take out the set, yeah, you know, go through a game and just just watch somebody else's genius and try to understand it. Honestly, it's like peak chess for me, peak chess experience all right.

Omar: 41:50

So I'm gonna ask you one more, and you already know where it's coming you know, and I'm terrible. I'm kind of nervous about this because I know what I said when you asked this to me and I feel like I might pay for what I said to you on this. If a chess genie existed and could grant you any one chess wish, what would you wish for?

Daniel: 42:15

Being on the receiving end of that for the first time. Yeah, the hardest part of that is, I think, picking, just picking one. And now I understand why Julia Rios, when she was on the show, said wait, don't I get three, cause it's. It is very hard to narrow it down to one. But I'm not going to go with an improvement answer. Those are great, but I'm not going to go with improvement. I'm going to go with something bigger than that for the game. How about growing the game? It's basically going to be that. So I would love for chess. My wish is for chess to become as popular and mainstream throughout the world as, say, any of the biggest sports. I would just love it to just have that level of participation, fame, respect, excitement.

Daniel: 43:03

It feels a little strange to say like everybody plays chess, like I feel like not everybody likes the same thing, but I just want it to be huge, as huge as any other sport out there, because it deserves to be, as huge as any other sport out there. Because it deserves to be, because we love this game. Obviously you, me and everyone listening feels it's worthy to be on that same level and we're just trying to get it there. So I would love if we could just, you know, fast forward time, boom, we're there. Chess is huge to the off-world. I would agree with you. That's my wish.

Omar: 43:32

That's a good wish, that's an excellent wish.

Daniel: 43:36

A small part is. I mean, this show is trying to play a small part in that we're trying to grow the game through the show. We all have our different ways of doing that, whether it's like teaching a family member or whatever the case may be. The show is an effort to get us there. Tiny effort in that big picture, but yeah.

Omar: 43:56

No, that's a wonderful thing. What's funny, man? You made me think of this. The appeal for chess for me when I was first getting started four years ago was that it felt like it was one of the few things left, that from a sports perspective. That, mind you, this is all pre scandals and cheating and all those things, but if you take that out.

Omar: 44:19

Of it and you say let's just say everybody's being above board. It's one of the few things left that there's you can demonstrate. It's. It's skill-based. You, you're either better than your opponent, or they're better than you, or you're equal. And there are no other parameters, there are no other factors. It's you study, they study, let's see who knows what, either through memory or through tactics or through oh, I didn't see that. And the thing I love most about it is even after you, you know, have battled over the board, the person that becomes your that is, your opponent becomes your friend. You only don't root for them during, whatever the time control is for that match. You're rooting for them before and you're definitely rooting for them after, just not during. And that's the beauty of it, man, your opponents become your friends. Jiu-jitsu is very similar. You're a martial artist, so you know exactly what.

Omar: 45:19

I'm talking about Like the people you compete against become your friends and you want the best for them, except versus you. And even if they do well against you. You're like wow, you were really good today on this.

Daniel: 45:32

Yeah.

Omar: 45:35

It's amazing. To that end, I would love to see the game grow as you described, become the most popular game, but I would love to see an addition to that man, if anybody who had interest had the opportunity to become a professional player.

Omar: 45:49

And that to me was sort of the appeal. I'm like, wow, if I just get good enough, I can actually challenge and play the top players in the world. It's just a matter of me. I can do that sitting right in my house and improve, and if I'm good enough I'll get those opportunities.

Daniel: 46:06

There are very few things like I can't go into the NFL? I'll never be good enough. You got to be born right to be able to do this With chess.

Omar: 46:16

You just have to study. Now, there's some natural ability that you have to have, but if you train it, you can become good enough at chess at really any point, and that, to me, is one of the most beautiful parts of the game is that it truly is accessible to everybody, if we act right.

Daniel: 46:36

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

Omar: 46:37

If you act, if you're just a kind person, the game's accessible and it's beautiful and it teaches you so much about life, which is why I don't understand why there's so much gatekeeping around. It kind of blows my mind, yeah, but I would love to see your wish come true.

Daniel: 46:53

I really would, and I hope it does yeah, you brought up a lot of great points. On mine, we probably must have a whole episode, just on that one topic, right, yeah but one of the things that I do love about it that you hit on is any two people can step up to the board and play each other, and it's not wrong, it's not weird, right. Like you don't want like a-year-old prime specimen dude boxing a little kid, right?

Daniel: 47:18

Like we can't share boxing that way or something like that. Or you know, there's like other sports where it's just like the disparity is too much.

Daniel: 47:25

This isn't right you know Right right, but with chess it's never wrong for any two people to step up to the board and play each other, and I think that's what gives it one of its great features. It's so accessible to everybody. Everybody comes here. It doesn't matter age, gender, race, background, anything it's all irrelevant. We can all come together and play this board and play chess together. It's just such a beautiful thing.

Omar: 47:48

It brings people together in ways that a lot of other things cannot it's one of the few things left, man, that it has the unique distinction of being ice cream and pizza. Like we don't argue about the greatness of chess, we argued the semantics of chess. What time control is best?

Daniel: 48:06

What's your favorite opening?

Omar: 48:07

What's this? It's those things.

Omar: 48:09

And again, if women were treated better then it would be perfect, but again, but we're working on that and we're going to continue to work on that. I mean, we're going to continue to be intentional. We got guys like you who are amazing, who are, who are focused on that. But, that withstanding, it's one of the few things we have left that unites everyone in the world. I've met so many cool people because of chess all over the world and I wouldn't you know again, I wouldn't trade it for anything and I I to like to your point, man, I wish that everybody could see that. I wish everybody could experience that. It's a gift and it it teaches you, not just about the game, but chess. Chess will teach. That's why it's, compared to everything, it teaches you life lessons, right they're, they're just they're in there.

Omar: 48:58

And, and you know, I just uh, I hope that we can. You know, we can grow the game. I really do.

Daniel: 49:04

Yeah.

Omar: 49:05

Yeah.

Daniel: 49:06

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I think, I think you are Omar, like I think what you do.

Omar: 49:12

I mean, I think you are Omar. I'm trying, man, I think you do, you do.

Daniel: 49:14

I mean we all do it in different ways. I mean you bring that welcoming spirit, you bring the passion, you connect with people, you're accessible, you talk to everybody who wants to talk to you about chess and, yeah, we all play our roles, so I think we will. I mean, the game is growing. That's the good news.

Omar: 49:31

The game is growing.

Daniel: 49:32

We just wanted to grow even more, that's all. Yeah, we want to grow even more, you know.

Omar: 49:36

I'm right there with you. Well, dude, look, as much as I want to hang on to this, I feel like.

Omar: 49:41

I have to give you back. I have to return it. That which belonged to you was always yours. Your show is amazing, man. Just I want to tell you thank you for the opportunity to get to do this for you. The just even being able to be a part of this has been one of the great joys of you know my chess journey, uh, and your show has definitely been a favorite of mine and it's it's helped me, like I said just to. It's just so inspiring, it's so unique, and what you've created, man, is a beautiful, beautiful thing. And especially now, to hear even more about what some of your motivations were and what you were intentional about, that was so interesting. What I love about it is you were intentional but you weren't on everybody's face about it, you just kind of did it, you didn't ask for credit.

Omar: 50:30

You just say, hey, I'm going to do this and I'm not going to sound it from the rooftops, I'm just going to let you see it to a point where it's like it's there and it's like it just felt normal, like I never thought oh, he's got another female guest on this week. It was, oh, my God, he's talking to Jen Shahadi. I can't wait to hear that the fact that you're doing it and you're normalizing it is the best way to make the game accessible to more and more women. Is that?

Omar: 50:59

this is how it should be. It's not. Oh, we're doing this just because we have to. We're doing this because it's the right thing to do and we're not going to make it weird. We're going to make it you know, we should have been doing this and I love that man, I love it, and that's the way it's supposed to be and you're you're the pioneer in in that regard. So just kudos to you, you know, and just thank you. Thank you for doing what you do.

Daniel: 51:26

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Omar. I appreciate the kind words.

Omar: 51:29

Yeah, absolutely.

Daniel: 51:30

Yeah, it was well. Let me tell you it was an honor to have you host this episode.

Omar: 51:33

Thank you, man.

Daniel: 51:34

And take the interviewing, the oh yeah, just the host seat and interviewer seat for this episode. And yeah, I just thought I thought it would be fun to celebrate the third anniversary of the show Crazy man. Three years, Three years. It's beautiful. So, yeah, very proud of that, very excited about that, and yeah, just, I'm going into the fourth year with an attitude that the best is yet to come.

Omar: 51:57

It is, it absolutely is, man. Like I said, I can't wait to see what you're going to do just in this video space. I'm remembering when we talked about this and it was like man you should stream. You should do this, you should do that, and you were like it's coming, you know, we'll get there, we'll do it yeah. And so I'm excited that it's here. Man, I'm excited that it's here.

Daniel: 52:17

Yeah.

Omar: 52:18

Yeah.

Daniel: 52:19

Thank you, thank you, yeah, lots of good stuff.

Omar: 52:26

And yeah, thanks for being part of that debut too.

Daniel: 52:29

I gotta say that I feel a little sheepish because I'm like hey, I've launched a YouTube channel. Who's the first guest? Me? No man, you know, say what you, just me.

Omar: 52:41

I'm coming up in here to do it yeah, I'll say it for you.

Daniel: 52:45

This just worked out that way in terms of timing.

Omar: 52:46

But there you go no, man, but it's the right way to do it, because if you're launching like it, what better way to introduce? The show to a new audience than to say hey, this is what you know, this is what we do, we did, here's what we're doing.

Daniel: 53:05

And that's a beautiful thing, right, that's a good point.

Omar: 53:07

Yeah To to the people who will be new to it Hit like and subscribe and notification bell and all things you're supposed to do on YouTube right, exactly, exactly Awesome.

Daniel: 53:17

Thanks for doing this. Thank you, man.

Omar: 53:19

Thank you, my pleasure, man.

Daniel: 53:24

Thanks for listening. This has been a production of my Business, adult Chess Academy, and that has a website with the same name. If you want to look for it, you can also find me being way too active on Twitter by searching my username, lona underscore chess See you next week.