Behind the Mic: Daniel Lona Interviewed By Omar Mills on 3 Years of The Chess Experience - Part I

119 Daniel Lona celebrates the third anniversary of hosting The Chess Experience by sitting in the guest chair, interviewed by previous guest and adult club player Omar Mills.

Three years ago, Daniel Lona launched The Chess Experience with a simple yet unique mission: to create chess content by and for adult improvers - a rare thing in the chess world at that time.

Now, with over 100 episodes and countless insights from his guests shared, Daniel talks about the journey, philosophy, and future of his podcast.

In this episode, he discusses:

• Why the podcast has had a goal of 50% women guests since Day 1. 
• The uniqueness of a club player as a host, bringing questions that resonate with amateur players but rarely get asked in chess media. 
• Daniel’s top four dream guests for the show. 
• Plans to expand the podcast into a YouTube channel to grow the show and create exciting, new content formats.

Submit a comment for Daniel on something you’ve enjoyed about this podcast. He may read it in the next episode (or a future one!):

• Website contact form
• Twitter DM
• Instagram DM

Follow Omar on Twitter

How You Can Support the Pod:

Join this show’s Patreon called “Podcast Perks” and get benefits like: 

• Submitting questions to guests
• A shout-out of your name on the pod
• Vote on future topics/guests 
• Exclusive behind-the-scenes updates about the show
• DM me any month for a brief chat on chess or episodes

Click here to join the Patreon for The Chess Experience.

Or you can…

>>Support this pod by grabbing a chess.com membership which will help you improve your chess & defeat your enemies. A small portion will fund this pod - and every bit helps! Just click this link.

>> Neither? How about checking out Daniel's chess.com profile? Witness his countless, embarrassing blitz losses. He even accepts some friend requests. (Ad)

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction: Three Years of The Chess Experience
• 3:35 Omar Interviews Daniel: Show Origins
• 11:03 What Makes The Chess Experience Unique
• 17:59 Memorable Guest Moments: Jennifer Shahadi & Bruce Pandolfini
• 24:52 The Approach to Interviewing Chess Legends
• 33:58 Representation of Women in Chess
• 44:17 Future Goals and Dream Guests
• 53:37 Show Closing and Contact Information

Transcript

Daniel: 0:05

Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show. It's all about helping adult improvers. I want to make learning chess easier for you to navigate, and I also want you to have a more fun experience along the way. I'm your host, Daniel Lona, a fellow chess amateur. Let's get to it.

Daniel: 0:25

This show is sponsored by chesscom, the world's largest chess community. Chesscom recently launched a new way to learn from your games with a feature called insights. If you visit chesscom slash insights, you can get detailed stats and analysis in any of the time controls you've played and across any time period. What kind of things can you learn? Well, you can learn. What time of day do you play your best morning, afternoon or night? What part of the game are you strongest or weakest? Opening, middle game or end game? Are you making more or less mistakes than opponents at your level? You can find out all this great info and much more at chesscom slash insights.

Daniel: 1:12

Welcome to this week's show. This time we're doing things a little differently because the show is celebrating its three year anniversary. It's pretty amazing to me that I've reached this milestone, and I hope you've had a really enjoyable time hearing the wide variety of guests that have appeared on this show. In fact, there's been over 100 guests so far and I can easily say that doing this podcast has been one of the greatest experiences and honors of my life. So, to celebrate its third anniversary, I thought I'd be the one in the guest chair for this episode, where I'll be interviewed about the show itself, and in the role of the host is fellow adult club player and previous guest on the show, Omar Mills. In our chat I talk about why I created the show, what makes it different than other chess content, who are some of my favorite guests, goals that I have for the show and four dream guests that I'd like to have. One other thing about my conversation with Omar we're good friends, so we end up talking a lot, and our conversation went pretty long. Or I just talk too much. Either way, I'm splitting our talk over two episodes. The first half will be this week and the second half will be next week. Why not celebrate for a full two weeks, right?

Daniel: 2:23

The last thing I'd like to mention before sharing my chat with Omar is that I'd love to hear your positive experiences with the show. What do you like about it? What do you think makes it unique? Was there a particular episode or guest that affected you positively. It could be because that episode helped your chess a lot, or it could be because that episode helped your chess a lot, or it could be something deeper and even a little more emotional than that.

Daniel: 2:48

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please share them with me and I may even read it in the intro to next week's episode. There's a few ways you can reach me to share your thoughts. One I have a link to the contact form on my website in the show notes. Or you can dm me, Twitter or Instagram. I'll have links to my accounts for both of those in the show notes. Or, if you're listening to this episode on Spotify, you can just simply comment directly on this episode. However you choose to contact me, I'd love to get a message from you about something you've enjoyed about this podcast and there's a good chance I'll share it with my community. All right, here's Omar Mills interviewing me about three years of running this podcast.

Omar: 3:35

The Chess Experience. I hope you enjoy it. Well, Daniel, the thing I wanted to remind you of is that years and years and years ago, I said I wanted your soul and your show. So I just want you to know I'm halfway there. You are halfway there today.

Daniel: 3:46

Yes, exactly, I was going to mention that I'm like at least two or three occasions you've mentioned you want to take my show?

Omar: 3:54

Yeah, I was like I want this. I can't get your soul. I still can't beat you, but I'll take this.

Daniel: 3:58

I will take this. I can go partway, I can give it to you for a week. You have the show for a week. This week, the show is yours. Sir, Repeat what you said to me before we started, when I said the reins of the show are in your hands now. I said that's dangerous. I said that's very dangerous.

Omar: 4:13

I think at first I was like wow, I'm humbled, I'm honored, but also that's very dangerous to something that I said that I wanted. Jokingly on x formally twitter, right and funny that that has that. That has come to come to be in in in a small piece. I still don't I still haven't gotten you yet on the on the board. I don't know that I ever will you're, you're, you're too good man you're way too good, your best chance right now.

Daniel: 4:44

So if you can convince me to play right now because I'm just like in maintenance mode, at best right now we can talk about that, listen, man maintenance mode for you is still dangerous.

Omar: 4:54

Okay, so do you want to just kind of dive in? Man, let's dive in. All right, whatever you got for me, why did you make this show? What was the? You know the? In fact, let me ask you to this way, why did you make the show? But also, I want to commend you for the courage of doing it, because there's a ton of chess content. That's our cause.

Omar: 5:18

People would come to me and they say you, omar, you should start a show. And I said I'm a bunch better guest than I am host, you know, and my answer would always be well, there's, you know, there's so many good shows that are already out there, you know, and I don't know that I can do anything that's going to. Yeah, I can't compete, you know, with those, those shows, or doing it like the best I can match, but you managed to carve out a space that's very unique to you and it compliments, and so I want to commend you for that and ask was that what your intent always was? You know, had you always thought of it that way or did that just evolve as the show evolved?

Daniel: 6:02

Yeah, that's a good question. So I think there's two parts to that. One is like why did I even want to create a podcast chess content at all? And then second, like what within it was I trying to do? So? The why I wanted to create a podcast at all was because I was playing chess, playing and studying chess three hours a day, absolutely loving it, and felt like that wasn't enough for me. So I think a lot of people might relate to that right Like just three hours that's all I get today.

Daniel: 6:30

But basically I started to get a sense that, you know, competing professionally was not something I was probably going to be doing, and so if I wasn't going to be competing in chess, how could I make chess something that was my whole life? And, you know, creating chess content was one way towards that. I had actually was coming off of a podcast before then that I had created very short lived, but it was for my copywriting business. It was a marketing and sales so. But I had already stopped that podcast by the time I was getting into chess.

Daniel: 7:02

But because it was somewhat recent, I had felt like you know, sort of podcast was on the brain still and I had gone through the initial steps of creating one. So it didn't feel intimidating to me Like, and how would I even create a podcast? I knew the steps, I had a course, so it was very doable. And I just felt, like you know, like, podcasts are very popular, so it was something that I knew would be a format that could work. And then the second part of it is then like well, what kind of podcast are you going to create? Like, what's the point of doing this? Well, I felt like, and this is probably like bias, self-serving, selfish, I don't know, but like I felt like we weren't represented enough. We, meaning adult improvements, adult club players yeah, weren't fully represented enough in the chess content scene, it's like almost exclusively title players who are doing this, and that's great. I want them to be out there, but I also wanted our perspective to be out there.

Daniel: 7:55

And content made for us that was accessible to us. Not that you had something. You didn't have to be advanced in chess, you could be beginner or intermediate and you could appreciate the content. You could dive into that content. So I wanted something that spoke to our level and I felt like that was something that I could do.

Daniel: 8:15

Of course, I joke and say that like like, sort of like, the nature of my show is you've you've never heard a worst player interview such talented chess players. You've never heard a worse player interview such talented chess players Like. That always tickled me as I went along, like, oh, this is the first time. You've always, like, a lot of my guests have been interviewed before, right, but they've never been interviewed by a player as weak as me. And the questions that I would have and there's something comical about that, but there's something interesting about that too that dynamic of, hey, I know a little bit of chess compared to you. Let's see how that conversation would go Someone who's really advanced talking to someone who, from their perspective, is pretty basic at chess, and I thought that that just wasn't out there, but I thought it would be a unique and interesting format, that's.

Omar: 9:55

I mean, you gave me a lot of thoughts around that that's. That's very interesting one. I love how you put it that. Here's something that made me think of, and I got this from one of my coaches the butcher you know, and he was talking about.

Omar: 10:09

I want to say that this might have been the world championship when magnus was playing nepo. It might have been the olympiad, it's somewhere around that time. We were having having a training session and he was like he coaches the, like his country's team, like he's like the national coach, you know, for them, and so he's very interested in it. And one of the things that you know he was asking me like while we were training. He was like hey, are you going to watch this? And I'm like yeah, of course I'm going to watch it. And he's like man, we're all junkies for this, aren't we? And I find that that's true regardless of level. If chess is on or available, pogchamps, I think, is a great example of I will watch the heck out of that if given the opportunity great example of I will wash the heck out of that.

Omar: 10:58

You know if, given the opportunity, I think too, the explosion of chess and the number of people rediscovering it or discovering it for the first time has grown exponentially, and so you've probably seen this in your numbers, in terms of how people have come, have found your show and have been listening to it. So I believe that it's refreshing for these top players to answer questions in that sense, and I think, give yourself more credit, man, you're not a bad player, uh, you're. You're an outstanding player. You're. In fact, if you look at your rating compared to you know people in the world, you're better than most of the world, you know. So no one's going to be on the level of these. You know the people that you're, you're interviewing, they're, they're unique. Just any title, quite frankly, is herculean you know just to reach.

Omar: 11:56

You know so, and I certainly have an appreciation for that more now than I did four years ago when I was getting started, you know. But I think that that's something that you know there's. There's a draw for that, there's a uniqueness to that, and you've created that space to that end. Man, are there any episodes, because you've done a bunch now are there any? That have stood out more than others, and it's okay if you don't say mine it's okay.

Daniel: 12:25

You mean after yours, besides yours.

Omar: 12:27

Besides mine, yeah, are there any that stand?

Daniel: 12:31

out are objectively, regardless of my, of course. I loved our conversation. No doubt but so did my audience. You have one of my top downloaded episodes of my entire show.

Omar: 12:44

Wow, that's humbling, yeah, very humbling, so yeah, people loved hearing from you. It's the rapport man that we have. We've had this for a long time.

Daniel: 12:52

Yeah.

Omar: 12:53

We've been doing this for a minute. Agreed, but go ahead.

Daniel: 13:01

I long time. Yeah, we've been doing this for a minute. Yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry, no, no, yeah, that's all right, I mean yeah, I mean there's a couple of ways that I could probably look at that like what are the standout ones? I'm gonna go with thinking of it as like most meaningful for me. So you know, like this isn't like about what was best or what performed well, it's just like for me personally as a host. There were two people. One was jenn Shahadi.

Daniel: 13:18

And in particular, the first episode that we had together. I love the second one that we did, you know, but there's just something about my first time talking with her, and she she actually was interested to talk to me too, like she wanted to know what I was like because we had a Twitter connection, twitter relationship, yeah, but she wanted to know what I was like in person, and, of course, I was just like in awe of the chance to get to speak to her, and let me explain why she was meaningful to me. She's one of, like my biggest inspirations in chess, yeah, yeah, here's why. Not only is she super accomplished, which is worth admiring unto itself. Facts, I mean just in terms of numbers, there's a lot of very accomplished chess players.

Daniel: 13:58

What stands out about her, though, for me, is that, in addition to that, she's using chess as a force for good.

Daniel: 14:06

She's trying to make the game more welcoming to everybody, in particular, for women and girls, and she's trying to make it a place that she's trying to, you know, make it a place that she's trying to make chess a place that treats them well, welcomes them, makes it a place that they want to stay and be in. That's like her life mission now with chess is to make it a better place for people. And I was like, wow, that's incredible. You got into this sport slash game, you freaking conquered it Two-time USs women's champion and now you're just using it to make the world a better place, like if I felt like I could say that about my chess journey, I would to die happy, so to speak. Like that that's that's peak to me and that's why talking to her was so meaningful, because I knew that going into it, that's why I loved her so much and why I wanted her on the show. And so the chance to talk to somebody like that, who's so accomplished and has done so much good for the game, that was really meaningful to me.

Omar: 15:02

But I'll mention my second person in a moment, just in case you're making to say I just want to just want to react, man, just just to echo everything you know that you've said. I've never had an opportunity to really talk with her real time, but we have exchanged messages on Twitter, slash X and Jennifer. I reached out to her when we were doing the t-shirt sales, when I had the branded shirts and we were giving proceeds to US Chess Women, and she was the person I spoke to to kind of say hey, how does this work? And was just very, very kind. You know, could have easily just blown me off.

Omar: 15:46

Never did that, was always just accessible and did not have to be, I'd say, the biggest thing, I'd say the humility that she has given her accomplishments and to still be accessible. I know enough, just on her. Very rarely do. You see? There's a saying I have talent will take you where character won't keep you, and I can't say that about Jennifer Shahadi. Her character shines even brighter than her skills and she could easily feel herself on that and she doesn't, you know, uh, and when you leave the game better than you found it, because the game wasn't always kind to her, but for her to take that and fuel it and turn it into a positive, it just, it just speaks. So, no, that that is absolutely I get why that one stood out to you. It's just, yeah, it's honored, just to meet her.

Daniel: 16:41

You know, much less get to interview her twice like that's, that's amazing man yeah, it really is, and I think you know what you talked about there, omar with her like that's. One of the reasons I love her too is that she, she, she doesn't act like she is a chess celebrity, but she doesn't act like one. She acts like one of us. She acts like she never acts like she's too important to talk to anybody who's connected to this game, who wants to reach out to her.

Omar: 17:06

She's so accessible and.

Daniel: 17:08

I mean that's another reason why she's a role model. It's just like I don't have a hundredth of her influence or fame or whatever, but people are aware of me and whenever they want to connect with me I try to remember that. You know, just like, be accessible. It was like I think. I think it's just a great lesson in life. It's just, you know, never be too big for anybody, no matter what you've accomplished. You know it's a beautiful thing to see with him, yeah.

Daniel: 17:29

Which is yeah, yeah, that's funny. It's like I'm so like I need to ask you a question now. So the second one is bruce pandolfini, actual master, bruce pandolfini yeah, man yeah.

Daniel: 17:45

So this goes back to my chess origin story. One of the big things that got me super excited about chess was seeing the movie searching for bobby fisher in the 90s and you know, real life person. He's portrayed as a character in that movie. I'm sure more than half my audience has seen it, but in case they haven't yet, he's a character in that movie. And after I saw that movie I got super excited about chess and started buying up a bunch of chess books. Well, whose books were they? Bruce Pandolfini's. So I kind of consider him my first chess coach because of that, because I first really learned the game beyond the rules. I first learned the game from him. So then to just have him on my podcast was surreal and amazing. And I mean this guy's, like you know he's also behind the scenes on all everything chess in movies and shows, right Like he's the consultant. Yeah, you know, he was a consultant for Queen's Gambit. He was you know, like he was.

Daniel: 18:38

Of course the movie has, you know, a character of him in Searching for Bobby Fishel, but he was a consultant for that and all these other things. Wherever Chess is in a movie, like he consulted on that and so like he just has like all and just having him on the show was absolutely surreal, one of the most meaningful things to me. So I would say I would say those two, you know, for like different kinds of reasons, but like those, those were very impactful episodes for me.

Omar: 19:02

So let me ask you this, so I'm going to dovetail that because again, you're, you're, you're speaking to chess, royalty and legends, you know it's a that. That's. How do you prepare for something like that? I know that you're a very regimented guy, but nothing really can prepare you to have a conversation with your hero in that blue. Susan pogar is like hey, I'm in town and I'm over at epcot, come, come meet me. You know, just out the blue and one. I'm shocked that like I'm getting a text message from susan pogar.

Daniel: 19:56

Right that alone is just like you know stunned so

Omar: 20:00

I go over there and in. In going over there, there was a part of me that was like well, I got to grab one of her books, I got to get her to sign something, I got to do this. I got to do that. Terrified, I'm nervous, even though Ian and I had already talked to her for our stream. So it's not like there was no context, we'd met, we'd spoken. But now I'm meeting you in person and I'm, you know, a kid meeting his hero, and there's very little that prepares you for that moment. Even though they're accessible, even though they're amazing, they're still them, and, you know, terrified. How do you? Because you do this every week, right, because you do this every week, right, you know, and I don't know that I could, because I would always be, I'd be too nervous to do it how do you do it? What's your approach to do? You have a different approach when you're interviewing these legends versus, you know, just regular people like me, or is there? Is it kind of the same, like, like, how do you go about it?

Daniel: 21:06

Yeah, yeah. So let me answer like all of those. First of all, nervously. That's the short answer. I'm never not nervous interviewing anybody, even a fellow adult club player. You think we're just peers. I still get nervous about that because I want to honor them. I think being nervous shows that you care. No doubt I mean not insanely nervous, but like a little bit of nervousness. It just shows that you care, you want to do a good job. It's their time, it's their journey, it's their story and I want to do a very good job of that. And I get nervous about, you know, whether I will do a good job, but yeah for sure you get a little more nervous when it's your, when it's your freaking heroes.

Daniel: 21:51

You know, yeah, yeah, no doubt. As far as how I prepare for that, you know well. So let me, let me highlight what I think is like my, my personal antidote to the that nervousness and like, like you said, like, to some degree, you can't. Like these are legends and they have volumes and volumes of what they've accomplished. So you can't, you can't, go through every game that they've done. You'll never, you'll never know everything that they've done. So here's two things for me. Like I try to remind myself to do two things in interview. One is to be grateful for like every part of it. I think when you're grateful during an interview, it's hard to do a bad job.

Omar: 22:28

Ooh, that's a bar. That's a good one, yeah.

Daniel: 22:31

Yeah, you know. And then the second part of that is just to try to have the conversation be joyful, like I don't want to. I don't want to communicate nervousness. I want to communicate how happy I am to be talking with them and I want to make it fun and interesting and dynamic.

Daniel: 22:46

And so, like part of me is saying like let's have a good time, let's have a fun conversation and the second part of me is saying, like I'm just going to, I'm going to express my gratitude, I'm going to be grateful for this experience, and I feel like if you do those two things, like nerves will not be the centerpiece of what's happening. So for me it's just it's joy and gratitude to try to counter the nerves that are inevitable. As far as, like the logistical preparation goes, I mean, I always prepare. You know that I'm always putting in work to prepare for my guests.

Daniel: 23:15

I'll be honest, like if it's someone like jennifer shahadi or bruce pandolfini or something like that. I do more in part because they just have a longer history they got more stuff for you to learn. Yeah, right right, like all these videos, books, and so I gotta like I gotta portion more, but also, like you know, if someone is on that level and they are honoring me by being a guest, I want to give the best that I can.

Daniel: 23:35

So, yeah, I'll probably put in a little more time for those people, good amount of effort to prep all. So that's a long answer to your question no, no, no, that's good.

Omar: 23:46

It's a what I hear coming out of. That is some of the a theme that we've been talking about, and that's really it's your character the fact that you have a posture of humility because again you've got a hit show, you know. But you don't behave as somebody who has a hit show. You've you've had a who's who of guests and, but you don't conduct yourself as somebody who's had a who's who of guests. You conduct yourself as like I feel like you always have first show energy every time I I listen, it's a yeah it's, it's like oh wow, this is my first show, you know, let me make sure I do this right.

Omar: 24:27

You know, and you've had several, but they all feel like first shows and I don't mean that in terms of, like, the quality has not evolved or what have you Right?

Daniel: 24:36

But you know what I couldn't say Speaking for energy?

Omar: 24:39

It's a. I'll put it to you this way, daniel the your show. If I were to say the quality hasn't evolved, I could actually say that to you as a compliment, to say that it's always been tip top, like it's a there wasn't much it needed to do to like I listened to it and I go. How is he going to top this? I remember the first time I listened to your show. I was getting ready for an event and I was on a run.

Omar: 25:07

I remember like your show was had replaced my music you know, and so I'm running like four miles just to kind of clear my head, and then right after that I've got like a seven o'clock game. So this is like around four o'clock and I'm out just on a run. I get back no-transcript. Yeah, no, if it is, it'd be this one, Cause I'm doing it you know, but the but. No, it's. It's a. No you have. You have an excellent, excellent product, man. It's a. Let me ask you though yeah, what do you think? I know why it's unique and why it's different for me you know, and the impact that it has for me and why it's different.

Omar: 26:20

And again, this is something that, prior to us coming on camera, we were talking about this and maybe I touched on here. I just can't remember the I didn't want to do a show. People would say to me you know you should do a show and I'm like I can't do a show because there's already too much good content out there. But you've managed to find a very unique slice in the space, and one of the things that you say a lot that I like is there's enough out here for all of us to eat, you know, and but how do you, how do you make your show similar but different?

Omar: 26:53

you know, it's a chess podcast, but it truly is an experience Like it's the. What it is. I think it's that branding is on brand it is it is an experience, and I say that, man, like you know that's, that's not hyperbole, I mean that it's it's, it's an experience listening to your show it's. It's that unique. What do you think, though, gives it that?

Daniel: 27:18

Yeah, that's a that's a great question. I should ask my audience too, Like I've never heard, I've never like directly asked them that question and asked that's a great idea. Those answers from like exactly like what stands out to you.

Omar: 27:31

Oh, you know what, daniel? Too I think you could, since you've interviewed so many great title players, like I'd love to hear, like what Jennifer Shahadi would say relative to all the time she's been interviewed. Well, what was unique about this with the chess experience for me was X, y, z. Like I would love to get some of that Like yeah, dude, that's something that you get. Those, you print that out, you frame it.

Daniel: 27:54

You know what I mean Exactly. That's something you hang in your house. There's no way. If I ask her that question, I'm not posting and sharing her response.

Omar: 28:02

Yeah.

Daniel: 28:06

Whatever it, her response yeah, whatever, that's something that you that you do, that, but yeah, please, yeah, so yeah, I guess the the reason I brought up that first is I'd be curious to know what people pursue my audience perceives, as what stands out is different than what I'm trying to do. That would be, or maybe it's the same, I don't know. One thing we already talked about, which is that this is the adult club player perspective. You know, and that's that's. I almost don't think I've seen that anywhere else in. You know, club player interviewing, title players, sometimes very big name title players, that's rare, that's rare and and I think that gives it a different flavor than most shows, and I'm proud of that. And you talked about, like you know, like how I prepare for interviews. Well, let me restate that it was something else that you said that caught my attention. You said that I always have like a humility as I'm doing all of those. That's because I feel like I'm a representative for the people that were a part of the MHS community.

Daniel: 28:59

The adult learns people trying to get better, you know, while managing jobs, families, all this stuff, I feel like I'm just a representative. I'm not technically speaking, but I treat it as I'm going in there for all of us to ask the questions that we would ask. So it's not really about me, it's just about me representing our group like an ambassador, so to speak. Love it and I think that's one of the standout things about the show is having one of us interview these big name players okay the other is that we're the improver group.

Daniel: 29:35

That's what drives us, is this interest to get better, to see what we can accomplish for ourselves, and so I try to always have improvement help on the show I shouldn't say always, like there's a part of me that just wants to do fun episodes too, but yeah, it's frequently there. You know that they're, especially if I'm interviewing a title player that we're going to talk about. You know some tips on how people can improve. So there's there's there's an emphasis on learning and improvement. That isn't always there in all chess content and certainly not to the club player level. Like I said, you know maybe it's for beginners.

Daniel: 30:10

there's stuff for beginners, there's stuff for dance players, but at our intermediate-ish level, you know. So that's another second thing, and then the third thing that I'm very proud of is that half of my guests are women, and again, Beautiful.

Daniel: 30:27

Jennifer Shahadi's influence is that half of my guests are women and, again, beautiful yeah, reading her book chess queens, realizing, learning about the lack of representation that women have in chess, the treatment that they've unfortunately had in chess, and just trying to do my part to improve the chess world just even a tiny bit that way on the representation level. And the truth is I don't know that it makes the huge splash that I would love for it to do. I would love for it to say that it's like a factor in turning the chess world around and giving women more representation. Right, I don't know that that's the case.

Omar: 31:03

I do it more out of principle than I was going to ask you man, is it intentional? Okay, so did you? Or did you happen to just go? Oh my gosh, half my, my guests were. Or did you say you know what? No, I've had this many male guests. I'm not going to have this many, you know, female guests.

Daniel: 31:25

I even recorded my first episode, I knew that that was going to be a goal. I knew that I was going to go for half of my guests being women, and it's very intentional. Sadly, it's a little harder to do that because there's less women in chess, just numerically, it just is, it's a fact. It's unfortunate, and by a lot. It's not like it's 55, 45, it's like 90, and so the pool of potential women guests is smaller than male guests, just because of the numbers issue, and so there is more effort that's required to get 50 of my guests being women, exactly for the problem that I'm trying to help alleviate yeah, think about, yeah, wow, think about, like, yeah think about yourself.

Daniel: 32:02

like you're like in chess media, like think about all the popular chess media centers that like publish on social media or content whatever interviews. Who do you see? It's almost always men. It's almost always men being featured, and so I'm getting less of like who's out there for women, you know, because, like I don't see it as well as I want to, so I have to, I have to dig a little harder, work a little harder to find them than I should have to, frankly. And so trying to do that, trying to give them that representation on this show, it's something I'm very proud of and I think that also makes my chess con different than everything not just other podcasts, but YouTube streaming where there's an interview setting or there's guests. It's rare that half are women. There's an interview setting or there's guests. It's rare that half are women. It's, in fact, I think only like jennifer's ladies night like, yeah, did something like that.

Omar: 32:50

So you know, we're all women, but do you find in terms of the feedback that you've gotten about that? One, have you gotten any feedback about it? And two, have you again? It's and it's not a measurement in terms of just that you did. It is commendable. Let me just give you your flowers on that immediately. Thank you, because it goes back to what we talked about as far as leaving the game better than you found it going to benefit people who have been treated so poorly by the game, which is just sad and unfortunate.

Omar: 33:29

The fact that you are doing this to draw attention to it, and draw positive attention to it and say, hey, I'm going to be from show zero, very intentional about balancing this out in hopes of drawing more women to the game, and that's one fantastic. But two, have you received any feedback from anyone that says, hey, you know, this made me more interested in playing or this gave me more courage to be able to go in? Because I think about all just the women that you and I know, who play the game, that we both know as friends of ours or people that we, I sometimes think like how in the world do the? You know, why do they keep going? You know, just off of the stories.

Omar: 34:13

I've talked with them about personally, sort of offline, and I hear the different things, stuff like I had to change my profile icon, you know, on chesscom, because I kept getting marriage proposals or different things. You know, just that kind of stuff. Have you found that your show and your format and the way that you've done it has? Have you gotten any feedback that like, hey, this is working. Or is it one of those things that you're you're hoping to still receive? Or are you good if you never hear it so long as you're you're you're doing?

Daniel: 34:44

it. Yeah, like all of those things. So I do get. I have gotten feedback, interestingly enough, from men, men with daughters okay, men with daughters saying that they listen to my show with their daughter, particularly the ones that have no guests yeah, and that they're very happy that there's a show out there that is featuring women.

Daniel: 35:05

So that way they you know, they see that representation. This I can do it too, or I want you know, so they can have more role models to find and connect with. So that has happened and you know, honestly, like the first message that I got, like that that's enough to always keep doing it to me yeah yeah, you know, if you if it's just one person that you impact on this worth it.

Daniel: 35:27

Worth it. As far as my own audience demographics you'd be. It's like it's surprising to me it is 90% plus male, and so okay. But I also feel like this is the problem that we have. I don't expect my show to change the number of women in chess, and so if you go into it with only if you go into creating a chess podcast where chess has 10% women and 90% men, you know like it's not going to change that reality. Just because I feature half women. I guess my hope was that maybe some more women would be attracted to the show and listen to it Because there's so many female guests. Maybe that has happened to a degree, but but I haven't seen that. But here. But here's the bottom line. I'm doing it on principle. If it changes anything, even just one or two people, that's music to my ears and totally worth it. But if it never goes beyond one or two people, that's okay, because I just feel like it's the right thing to do.

Omar: 36:23

Just to dovetail over that, I thought of Caitlin Clark and what she's done for the WNBA. Okay, what do you think it would take to have that impact on the chess world? You know, is it what if we had? Like I mean, cause, here's the thing. This is why I'm like I'm, I'm wondering. The the biggest thing to happen to chess in the last 10 years was the Queen's Gambit. When you think about that in terms of like Beth Harmon's not even real, but we've had Beth Harmon's that- were real.

Omar: 36:54

We've talked about a couple of them already just on, you know, in this interview, and you would think that having a show like that, like it boggles my mind that a show that had a female chess superhero, for all intents and purposes, would draw more men to the game than women to the game, like it would be now.

Omar: 37:18

again, I don't know if that's if, how that nets out, you got 62 some odd million people that watch that show. But I'm wondering what the overall impact of that has been with women on the game. But as you're telling me, I'm I'm thinking that 90, 10 sounds about right. So I'm I'm wondering, without having any data in front of me and just your opinion, what cause I feel like Beth Harmon was Caitlin Clark, and we've had real ones. We've had people that have had that. We've had women that have broken, you know, have broken the barrier. What else do you think it would take to draw more women to the game? That's a great question.

Daniel: 37:56

I mean, I feel like Jennifer does a great job of answering that question in the book, so my answers are her answers because she knows better than me, no doubt.

Daniel: 38:07

And I've had a couple of guests talk about this. Comfortable female guests talk about this. I mean, I think a lot of it goes to a welcoming culture for women, like when they go to a chess club or when they connect with people online in chess, that it needs to not be sexist or harassing. If it is, you just stop it dead in its tracks. Right, like who would ever want to stay in an experience, like you said that, right like you're, you're surprised that they stay in it in spite of that and you know, to their credit, they're willing to to you know yeah, endure that, try to endure that, try to set it aside as much as possible because they're, because they want to do what they love, and god bless them for that.

Daniel: 38:47

But of of course, there's many more that just say I'm not putting up with this. Forget it, you know.

Omar: 38:51

Yeah.

Daniel: 38:52

And I think I don't know how you solve that, but I feel like that is critical. I mean, you're saying, like, how do we change the culture, not just even in America, but probably worldwide? Like that's a tough thing to figure out. I don't have an answer to how, but I do know that that has to be something that's addressed because, like, if you don't have this warm welcoming space, how do you keep people in the game?

Omar: 39:15

Agreed.

Daniel: 39:16

Yeah, yeah.

Omar: 39:17

That's a yeah, Go ahead. I'm sorry, man.

Daniel: 39:19

Yeah, no, I was just gonna say I mean the other out there, it needs to be a. You know, I I often refer to chess as a sport, just because it's yeah, it's, 100 is a sport. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I mean, it is a game, but it's more than a game.

Omar: 39:33

The way we normally talk about that word game, I just like I've never been angrier about a game that, right then, I have about. You know, if I lose a basketball game, I don't, I don't dwell on it for years, right exactly, exactly, yeah, I just want to elevate it above monopoly.

Daniel: 39:52

You know that's right. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean what was I gonna say? Yeah, when you have a sport that you know you can, you can choose, like, who you want to show, that's in it and you're not showing the women that are doing what they're doing. Like that's a problem too. I do think that all females, whether they're girls or women, are looking at that, and you know that's part of being welcoming to me, you know, is saying like you are part of this, you know. So I think representation, I think treatment of women and girls in chess communities is critical.

Omar: 40:22

Whether it's online or in person doesn't matter both, and beyond that, I don't't know, I feel like if you did those two things, you would take care of a lot I got one thought on that pain you have a tournament, have, have something exclusive for them, invite top players, invite some, you know, you know I don't know where you you look at that maybe just the rankings have have a cutoff and you could have a sponsored event with some real money.

Omar: 40:52

And I guarantee you if somebody did that, if they were to look at that and say, okay, we're going to have a sponsored event exclusively for women and there's large dollars attached to this, I guarantee you would make a splash. It would get people's attention and people would say, oh wow, wait a minute, that's something that, like I can. I can build a career off of that. This is the first time we've done this. It's somebody just has to like. If I had the money, I'd do it. You know somebody just has to want to, somebody has to to care about that. And if you do that, you know money talks first and then you're, you know somebody just has to want to, somebody has to to care.

Omar: 41:28

You know about that and if you do that. You know money talks first and then you're you know money, will the money you invest in something will get people to then see your character. But if you just lead with character and this is unfortunate it's never going to be enough. You know it's a you have to have. Like, if I walk up to somebody who's starving and I want to have a conversation with them, I better feed them first right like let me give them something to eat hey, burr, you want a sandwich?

Omar: 41:57

okay, now I can talk to you. Now you'll see, you've seen my. I fed you. Now you, you'll listen to whatever it is that I'm talking to you about, and I think, if we were to do that, it's. There's no better way to begin the conversation with honoring women and wanting to draw them to the game than to pay them, and to pay them is equal to, or if not more than, the men you know it's it's to just make the statement that would get everybody's attention, in my opinion, yeah.

Daniel: 42:24

Yeah, I agree.

Omar: 42:25

Just the thought you know, the you know, and if I'm, if I've, and if I'm ever in a position to do it, I will do it because I want to see that it's something I'm very passionate about and I know you are as well. Yeah, all right, man, let me ask you this when do you see the show going from here? You've kind of given your approach to how you go about it. What makes it unique, some of the things that are inspiring to you, but you've already got an amazing show. What are the goals that you have for long-term? What, like, give me, like your, what do you want to have accomplished in like the next 18, you know, next 24, you know's your five-year plan relative to the show? Like, what are you looking to do and looking to accomplish?

Daniel: 43:12

Yeah, well, this might sound like I'm patting myself on the back a little bit, but it will be just like.

Omar: 43:16

No man again do that, you're allowed.

Daniel: 43:20

Echoing what you said, like I do think a quality show at this point, and there's there has been things along the way too that I've done to to improve it, and so I think it's a it's. You know it's a solid show right now, yeah, but what I haven't spent much time on is growing it and it's it's. You know it's got good numbers already, but nowhere near what I what I'd love for it to be. So that's kind of like the two halves to something like this right, Like it's like reach who are you like? How many people are you reaching? And then also like the quality of the show.

Daniel: 43:55

I think for right now the quality is pretty solid. I'll always tweak here and there to do what I can, but I think the main energy going forward over the next year or two is going to be in expanding my reach, because you know, when you believe you're doing something good, you want as many people as possible to be able to listen to it, watch it, whatever the case may be. So growth is. Number is probably my number one goal right now, and I feel like my health is finally finally in a place where I can do that. Yeah, and I mean it's like a little bit of a teaser here for what's to come. I will be creating a youtube channel for this podcast. We're going to be doing video recordings now and, at a bare minimum to start, there will be multiple two to five minute clips of those episodes on youtube love it tbd on full length video episodes, that's.

Daniel: 44:42

That's a whole big thing to do, but at the very least soon you will be able to see a good number of clips from each episode. Love it. That'll help expand it to people who, you know, don't necessarily only listen to a show like this. Plus, I think it's exciting because it's going to open up some possibilities. I've never been able to talk with anybody and have a chessboard while we talk you know a digital chessboard while we talk, yeah.

Daniel: 45:07

And so I mean it basically opens up the possibility to do all types of content that are available to do. That you see on chess YouTube channels. So I may not just be limiting it to creating the video versions of the show but actually expand to different things. Maybe we do some coaching lessons, maybe some you know irl games that we post up there. We'll see. You know, sky's the limit once we have a youtube channel, in terms of what else you can do.

Omar: 45:32

Will you do any sparring? Oh interesting I would love to see you play some of your guests just for the experience, just just to do it again there's. You're not going to win like but you should, but you should absolutely play them like just to say you did like, how, like, how long can I survive?

Daniel: 45:52

end of the conversation blitz game.

Omar: 45:53

Basically, yes, I would love to see like you play jen shahadi in a three plus zero and just see if how long it takes her see if I can make it to move 20.

Daniel: 46:05

Yeah, see if you can make the move 20 that, that, that, like I'd love to see that.

Omar: 46:09

But go ahead, man, I interrupt you.

Daniel: 46:10

I'm sorry no, no, that's, that's great, yeah, so. So there will be new things like that too. You know types of content that will. That will be part of the show. That can be done. But, to start, there will be, you know, a video component to the show coming soon, which I'm very excited about. I've always wanted to do it, you know, and and now it's like it's finally, finally, the time has come and it'll be. We'll be releasing that, so that'll be a big part of the growth. But, yeah, I'll be honest and sure, like I want to. In 2025, I want to double, triple the size of the show in terms of audience reach and then beyond even that in years to come. So that's basically the, the number one goal and everything that I do probably, you know, like everything I do, that'll be new. Yeah, we'll, we'll serve that will be to to expand more reach, reach, more people.

Daniel: 46:50

Like I said, there's there's enough there for everybody you know, there's people who want all types of chess content for a certain type, and I just know there's lots of people out there who just don't need to know about the show yet.

Omar: 47:00

Yeah, yeah, no, that's that. It's funny. You got me thinking about how Magnus, as we're recording this, was on Joe Rogan recently and you know, like what a get that would be if he could come do the chess experience, Is he? I'm going to venture a guess that Magnus would be a dream guest, but do you have, is there a list of people that you haven't talked to yet that you would love to kind of bring on? Do you have any dream guests?

Omar: 47:34

You know now that you're thinking about, like and I don't mean it just in the sense of who could achieve the goal of you expanding the reach of your show, of your show, right, but just people that you know. I'm thinking, well, let's look at it from both perspectives. Who would you love to get, who could do that, and who would you love to get that would be a guest? Who, somebody that you would just want to have dinner with? Like, if the cameras weren't on, if you weren't recording, if you were just out having a meal with this individual, like, who would those two sets of guests be?

Daniel: 48:11

Okay, yeah. So as far as the dream guests go, this goes to what I'm proud of with the show, which is that I, like the top 50 players in the world. I am so impressed by what they do. I love what they've accomplished and I would love to talk about their accomplishments on the show. It's truly inspiring what they do, but I believe in a chess world that focuses on them and the other people who are the engines of the chess world and the chess community.

Daniel: 48:36

So when I think of my ideal show, it runs the gamut. I wouldn't want a show that just featured top 50 players and nothing else. There's probably many podcast hosts who would, chess podcast hosts who would I don't know or potential chess podcast hosts who would, and that's awesome. But I feel like my show is trying to be a voice for all the people who make this chess world go even beyond the top players yes, the top players, but plus, and so my dream guests are only those. They're just people who I think are doing a great job, and I love what they're doing. So I'll give you one example.

Omar: 49:15

One is grandmaster robert hess has a beast he's yeah, he's he might be the best ever. Do it, man yeah his commentary is extraordinary.

Daniel: 49:25

I like that he treats it seriously. I mean, I'm also like having fun being humorous, but he just seems to have such a reverence for the game.

Omar: 49:33

And he knows his stuff. I mean, obviously he's a GM but, like the dude is nice on commentary, like he breaks it down in such a way Like he's outstanding Right. He's an amazing GM. Yeah.

Daniel: 49:45

You know of an above and beyond GM, but somehow makes me understand, like. I can understand everything he's saying, that's crazy.

Daniel: 49:57

I don't know how he does that, but I think he's absolutely one of the top tier commentators and I would love to have him on the show. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying, like people like him. Okay, so he's not a top 20 player, but he is helping the community so much by making these top events accessible to people like us. I really dig that. Another one is Pia Cramlin, grandmaster Pia Cramlin. I've tried, but I also know that in general she's just not interested in being like on shows or interviewed, like with mine or just in general. So so I you know, I respect that.

Omar: 50:24

That said, it doesn't change the fact that she would be yeah, right, yeah, you probably get it on a cramling you probably get her, potentially, potentially one day.

Daniel: 50:33

Potentially, yeah, you get her you might get mom, maybe, maybe yeah, but yeah, like with pia, I just love what she's doing, how amazing she's performing, well beyond the age people would expect you to still perform amazing, like the fact that she's doing this event, if I'm not mistaken right, like she's performing Well beyond the age people would expect you to still perform.

Omar: 50:50

Amazingly Like the fact that she's doing this. She's still playing events. If I'm not mistaken right, she's still active In her 50s.

Daniel: 50:55

Yeah, she is crushing it in her 50s and I just find that super inspiring. Plus, she's one of the most accomplished women players in the history of the world, so that's pretty cool. Women's world champion that's pretty cool. Women's world champion and grandmaster, alexandra Kostinik. I don't know if I'm pronouncing her last name exactly right. My Russian is not very good, but you know who I'm talking about.

Daniel: 51:13

Oh yeah, one of the legends of chess, and just her career is incredible and she, too, still performing at a very high level, and so, yeah, she would be a dream guest for me. Actually, she's talking about nervous. I've gotten, I've been a little too nervous, like I haven't tried to invite her yet.

Omar: 51:30

I've been nervous about it, shoot your shot man, you know, shoot your shot I know, I know she's just so amazing.

Daniel: 51:38

And then someone who has been I don't know if he currently, but at least has been in the top 50. Sam Shanklin Bro, get Sam.

Omar: 51:47

Get Sam. Sam is such a good dude. I met him at he was signing his book. He had a new book come out and I was at the event. I was playing the event that he was signing. The dude sat in the Skittles room with us and he's just hanging out in the Skittles room. There's a bunch of us like he's just here's this GM, and I kind of look like he's just here's this gm, and I kind of look over. And I just finished playing a game that I had lost and I look over. I said, hey, sam, would you mind going over the game with me? He's like, yeah, so he slides over. He slid the board over. We set it up and I start walking him through what I'm doing and I got an analysis of a game that I just played from Sam Shanklin.

Omar: 52:31

So I say that to say man, like it's you 100% should reach out to him because I think he'd do it. If the dude will analyze my terrible chess at an event, he will 100% do the chess experience. I think it's just you, you know, keep pressing for that because sam, like he's a really good guy, he's really nice guy yeah, what appeals to me about him is that this is like a certain underdog quality to him.

Daniel: 52:58

It's, it's interesting like he's a top 50 world but you know he's a super gm yes, freaking super gm but has like this underdog quality because he he learned a little bit later, he had to work a little harder than a lot of the other super jams. Because of that, I think to, to get to where he is and I just I dig that. I don't know, I can't help it. I'm a lifelong fan of underdogs and there's a little bit of that quality to him, even though at the same time you know he's one of the best to ever play the game. Basically, I mean 99 better than 99.9 percent that'll ever play. And so that mix of like super gm with underdog is just that really is cool yeah, and that's.

Omar: 53:35

It's like, wow, how do you, how do you achieve that? Yeah, and then, on top of that, you're you're an underdog who is a super gm that will hang out in the skittles room and analyze a game of just a random dude that you don't know from a hole in the ground.

Daniel: 53:51

Right yeah.

Omar: 53:52

He's that guy. Yeah, he's accessible, right. Took pictures with everybody, you know. Just, he played a simul as well. I missed my opportunity. I was too chicken to play him, you know, in the simul because I was mainly concerned that I'm like I don't want to burn out on this, and then I've got a game right after this. But I should have just skipped the game and played him in the simul to be, to be quite honest.

Daniel: 54:16

That's what I should have done.

Omar: 54:17

Just taking the L on that and had the experience of doing it just to be able to say I played him. But yeah, 100%, man, like reach back out to him, like him. I think he'd do it, I really do yeah, yeah.

Daniel: 54:35

so those are like four that I think are amongst the top of my dream list. Thanks for listening. This has been a production of my Business, adult Chess Academy, and that has a website with the same name, if you want to look for it. And that has a website with the same name, if you want to look for it. You can also find me being way too active on Twitter by searching my username, lona, underscore chess. See you next week.