GM Susan Polgar: A Chess Legend on How She Broke Barriers & Elevated the Game

118 GM Susan Polgar is a once-in-a-lifetime talent. She became the first-ever woman to earn the GM title by rating and norms. By age 15, she became the highest-rated female chess player on the planet.

In 1996, she became the Women’s World Champion and the first-ever player to earn the Triple Crown: holding the world title in all formats: blitz, rapid, and classical.

Not only that…But she did so against relentless obstacles from sexist chess federations who did not want a woman to succeed the way she did.

In this episode, we discuss her many competitive achievements, her unique upbringing in Hungary with her father and sisters, and why it led to their success.

We also cover Susan’s incredible influence on the game in her post-competitive chess career.

For decades, Susan has worked tirelessly to raise the profile of professional chess in America, and to grow the game for women and girls throughout the world.

We discuss all this through the topics raised in her new and thrilling autobiography, Rebel Queen.

More From Susan:

• Susan's new book, Rebel Queen (hardcover)...or Kindle
• Susan’s website
• Twitter
• Instagram
• Facebook

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Transcript

Daniel: 0:05

Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show. It's all about helping adult improvers. I want to make learning chess easier for you to navigate and I also want you to have a more fun experience along the way. I'm your host, daniel Lona, a fellow chess amateur. Let's get to it. This show is sponsored by chesscom, the world's largest chess amateur. Let's get to it. Or a club member that you just played, and you can do so interactively on the board, with both of you on video talking to each other. It's also a great way to have a lesson between a student and a coach, and you can check that out on chesscom slash classroom. Welcome to this week's episode.

Daniel: 0:57

We have an incredible guest for you, the legendary grandmaster Susan Polgar. I suspect most of you listening know who she is and why she's so well known in the chess community. Even still, her list of accomplishments and background is definitely worth sharing. Susan was born and raised in Hungary and she is the oldest child of the three famous Polgar sisters. Among her many achievements, susan is the first ever woman in the world to earn the Grandmaster title by rating and norms. In 1992, she won the Women's World Blitz Championship and the Women's World Rapid Championship. Then, four years later, in 1996, susan won the Women's World Chess Championship, and that gave her the Triple Crown, which means she was the world champion in classical, rapid and blitz, and she was the first person to ever achieve that, amongst both men and women alike. Also, during the course of attending five chess Olympiads, susan has had an undefeated record of 56 games with zero losses. And those are just some of her competitive accomplishments, and that record alone is outstanding and enough by itself. But she's also had an extraordinary post-competitive chess career.

Daniel: 2:15

Over the past few decades, susan has been amongst the most influential chess figures in the world by raising its stature here in America, as well as helping to bring more women and girls into the game everywhere. One of the ways she's achieved those goals is that in 2007, she launched the Susan Polgar Institute for Chess Excellence, known as SPICE. The institute has helped raise millions of dollars for chess scholarships and has sponsored numerous high profile chess tournaments, like the SPICE Cup and the Susan Polgar Girls Invitational. And now Susan has written a new book, her autobiography called Rebel Queen.

Daniel: 2:52

I've read the book and it's absolutely phenomenal. The challenges Susan faced in her life were more than I ever realized, which just makes her accomplishments all the more impressive. I couldn't recommend the book more highly. There's a link in the show notes to purchase her book, along with links to her social media accounts if you want to follow her, which you should, and we discuss different topics from her book at length in our conversation. Here's my interview with the great Susan Polgar. I hope you enjoy it. Hi, susan, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. More than words can express.

Susan: 3:28

I'm excited to have you here. Thank you so much for talking with me today. How are you doing? Absolutely.

Daniel: 3:32

Hi Daniel, it's my pleasure to join and share my story about you beforehand, but I read your book. It's a phenomenal book, and I feel like I know even more now in a lot of great ways, and so excited to talk about all of it with you. Thank you, yeah, my pleasure. One thing I wanted to mention before I dive into all my questions is well, basically sort of a thank you, which is that we have connected several times over the years on Twitter, and this comment is actually less about me in that way, but rather just noticing that not only do you chat with me, but you chat with a lot of other adult club players on Twitter who are very enthusiastic and excited about chess. That's pretty uncommon for people at your level, and so I just want to say thank you for connecting with all of us in the community.

Susan: 4:20

Thank you, and maybe you recall a story I shared in my book actually, where this came from. You know, I remember when I was just 12 years old and I was already a decent player, like 2200 master level pretty much, and I happened to be in Moscow at the time and obviously was still far from becoming a grandmaster, and I was, as part of that trip, we were visiting a big tournament ongoing where Mikhail Tal has also participated, and obviously I was just a spectator still in the beginning of my career, relatively, and there was those huge demonstration boards, you know, long before computers and all that.

Susan: 5:00

So I was observing the game and mikhail tal, you know, a legend, you know a hero. You know he was at the time a very big smoker, you know and in between his moves. He was in the hallway, walking up and down, up and down, and one cigarette after another, and I, I. It was my dream that, oh my god, if one day I could play a game with some legend like that, like Mihaly Natal. You know what I would get for that right.

Daniel: 5:30

Yeah.

Susan: 5:39

And I didn't have the courage to go up to him and asked him. Well, you know, we are here from Budapest, Hungary, and my daughter's dream is to play a game with you. Would you consider that? After your game, and his eyes lit up shockingly, you know, to my biggest surprise, you know, his eyes lit up and he says yes, of course. And well, we thought it will take a few hours later until he finishes his game. I remember he was playing the Armenian grandmaster, Rafael Vaganyan, at that day, and so he went in, he went back to the tournament hall. Next thing, we know, within 15, 20 minutes, he's back out and he says I'm ready. I said what, I'm ready. I said what you know. How is it possible that he, you know, offered a draw and, you know, chose to play me? And then, anyway, it was a very memorable moment and you can read obviously you read the rest, what happened after that in the book, but everybody else listening you can find out the rest of the story. Yeah, find out the rest of the story.

Susan: 6:42

Yeah so anyway, that's what inspired me when you said that I'm talking to, you know amateur players or non-GFs, you know that, these experiences, and that particular one with Talis, that inspired me, that just because you're a legend, just because you're a grandmaster, you know you can be nice to people, you can share your passion of the game and I think that remained with me for the rest of my life.

Daniel: 7:07

That's fantastic. That's a beautiful story and a beautiful reason to keep doing that, and I love that it stayed with you your entire life. I can probably speak for other adult amateurs when I say that when you connect with us, even however brief, just one sentence, it means the world to us. It inspires us, you know, and obviously, chess being so difficult, we need a little inspiration along the way. So, thank you so much. My pleasure, yeah. So yeah, I'd like to just ask you kind of a broad question of what you are up to with chess these days. What are the activities within chess now that keep you busy?

Susan: 7:41

Well, as you may imagine, it took a lot of time to write my memoir and took over three years. So, now that the baby is born and the book is done and the release is happening, I'm very proud of it, and that's what it takes most of my time nowadays to you know to talk to people about it, to promote it, to share the message of the book, which is basically that it doesn't matter how difficult something seems to be, if you have the passion for it, you're willing to work hard at it and you'll persevere. Nothing is impossible. That's my message, and the book is just, of course, a vehicle to spread this message. Talks like this one is another avenue, and I'm hoping that actually even there will be a movie made out of my story to inspire even more people.

Daniel: 8:37

Oh, that's great. Well, on that last point, well, first of all, that would be amazing. I would love to see a movie of your book and your story. I noticed you recently posted on social media a picture of you in Hollywood. Does that have anything to do with it? Was there any momentum trying to be gathered there?

Susan: 8:54

There is some, yes, there is some interest, but as I learned over the years, especially in recent years, Hollywood's wheels turn rather slowly, and especially when a lot of things are happening. First it was the pandemic, and then they had the strike of the you know guilt, and lately the very unfortunate and tragic fires. So you know, things are, you know, will happen in their own time, I guess.

Daniel: 9:23

Sure, well, in the meantime, I'll cross my fingers for it. And also, in the meantime, we have this amazing new book by you for everyone to read, and yeah, let's dive into that. So, on March 11th, for everyone who's listening, on March 11th it'll be released and it's called Rebel Queen. There'll be a link to that book to purchase in the show notes for everyone listening, that book to purchase in the show notes for everyone listening. What made you say that? Well, I guess I was going to say now, but you said it was a three-year journey putting this together, but let's just say three years ago at that time, what made you say that that was the right time to publish your story?

Susan: 9:53

Well, as you know, after I retired from competitive play, I had a coaching career, and when I retired from that as well, from Webster University, that's when, finally, I had more time and I wanted to make sure I do a good job at it and I'm not rushing it, I can focus on it without needing to divide my attention, you know, to a job with the university. So I had time to think about it more and taking my time, which I did, and I guess that's why I wanted to wait until I had the time to do it.

Daniel: 10:27

Sure, you also have what, in my opinion, is the best title for a chess book that I've ever come across, which is Rebel Queen. As awesome as that sounds, there's probably a lot of great meaning in that title for you. In what ways do you consider yourself a rebel?

Susan: 10:43

Well, obviously no person, or definitely no four-year-old, you know, starts her life as a rebel. It's really the circumstances that forced me to become one. I was brought up in a family where the sense of justice and fairness had a very strong uh role and very important part Uh, probably not least for the fact that, uh the tragic, uh historic uh background of my family, I'm a third generation Holocaust survivor.

Daniel: 11:17

Yeah.

Susan: 11:18

And we lost over 300 members of our extended family in the in the Holocaust and my grandparents who were the few fortunate ones to return from those horrific places and times. It remained with them, those memories. Obviously it was the biggest injustice and unfairness. And therefore, also, growing up in a then communist country, Hungary, their message was that everybody's equal and in that sense, you know, it was also ingrazing in people, the message that everybody should be equal.

Susan: 11:57

So whenever I felt that I'm being unfairly wronged and discriminated against and you know whether it's sexism or anti-Semitism or you know things that the Trust Federation was doing it was an automatic reaction that I have to fight the unfairness, the injustice. And you know, slowly, slowly, it became as the story of my life. You know that, you know, in the memory of my family members who couldn't fight and never came back from the horrors of Auschwitz. You know, in that honor, In just, also in hopes of fighting the right fight for the right cause for the future generations, including my sisters.

Susan: 12:45

So when I was really young and I wasn't allowed to compete with boys in certain tournaments, because or I was, they said I was too young, I cannot play this tournament, you know I felt, but why not? And it kind of became the message. You know the fight, the struggle of my life when I felt that something is unfair, something is unjust. You know, let me fight it. And to say the truth, I had a hefty price to pay, both personally and professionally. But looking back all these years later I would obviously do it all over again. It was a worthwhile fight, that my sisters didn't have to go through all that and the future generations had a much easier time being a woman chess player.

Daniel: 13:33

Yeah, yeah, for sure. You definitely paved the way for a lot of people. So it sounds like you're saying that being a rebel wasn't something you really ever sought out to do. It wasn't something you said, oh, I would love to be one of those, but rather the circumstances demanded it, and when the circumstances were there, you felt it your obligation to rise up to that.

Susan: 13:54

Yes, absolutely.

Daniel: 13:55

So, yeah, I'd like to spend a little time on your early years in chess. I think people who are aware of your story are, even if they haven't read the book. Many people probably know about your father's unique approach to helping you and your sister succeed in chess, and that in of itself is interesting, but there's another element of it that interested me, which is that he combined with you and your sisters. His approach worked. You were all extremely successful. And yet many parents over the decades have wanted to raise chess superstars, but few have done so, even though your father kind of, to some degree, laid out a model. So why do you think your father's approach was successful when most other parents' attempts fell short?

Susan: 14:37

Well, my father was a visionary and he believed very much in his theories. He wrote a book about it, raise a Genius. That was published in Hungarian many years ago. And first of all I'd like to clarify a myth that a lot of places have been written incorrectly. My father is not a master chess player, as some thought. There has been another person by the same last name in Hungary who has been a master. Probably that's what caused the confusion, but that was not my father. He was just a casual player in high school and then he has not played much after that. Once I showed interest in chess, he became kind of a chess punk, you know, and he started learning with me and started collecting chess books and all that. But, to answer your question, he was fantastic in giving me his love of chess, his passion for chess, and I think that's the key. You know that when you love something, then practicing that or studying that, working at that, doesn't feel like work.

Daniel: 15:47

Right.

Susan: 15:47

It feels like you're enjoying yourself, you're doing your hobby. In fact, I just listened recently an interview with Magnus Carlsen where he said exactly the same thing that he chases his hobby. He never felt like he was working. You know, and I was kind of the same way, and I think that was kind of the genius of my father, that he knew how to make chess fun for me even at a very early age, when I was still three, four years old, and also at the same time he instilled it of me, in me, the value of hard work, of me in me the value of hard work.

Susan: 16:34

And at a very young age he had the philosophy that every night when you go to bed you should feel that you have a little bit of more knowledge than you had that morning when you woke up. And if that keeps repeating and repeating and accumulating, eventually that will bring positive results. You can, you know, bear the fruits of that. And I saw that happening right, even if not, even if I felt that I knew a little more every day. But the result may not happen the next day, but soon enough I saw the fruits of my labor, so to say, and that belief that hard work pays off. That became kind of part of me at a very early age and that made me believe that what I'm doing is the right thing, even if there are temporary setbacks or losses or disappointments. That belief that it's just logical right, that if you keep learning and other people don't learn, you will be ahead of those people on that particular subject right.

Daniel: 17:39

Right.

Susan: 17:41

And that's just simple logic that even a four or five-year-old could comprehend and understand, kept me going and, as a result, kept justifying this belief that practice makes master, you know, as my father used to say. You know, kept me moving forward. Moving forward now to your question as to why so many other parents fall short despite having the belief, is largely because they lose patience. They are looking for a shortcut and when you lose patience, what happens is you. You know you become maybe. You know you blame the child, you scold the child and the child loses the passion for the game and either a child quits altogether or sometimes the parents quit. You know putting in effort and sacrifices for paying coaches or taking them to tournament or all those things. You know that's necessary, obviously, to succeed eventually, and it's a very long-term project. You know like, I started to play at age four and, you know, let's say, won my first world championship title for junior level when I was 12. So even if you just look at that, it's a long time. It's an eight-year period and my parents sacrificed a tremendous amount, you know, in not just resources that was limited, but more so, even with their time and effort.

Susan: 19:15

You know when other parents. You know, after they come back from work, you know they spend time with friends, maybe, or go to a movie or have a beer with friends or try to save up for a car or a summer home. That's not what my parents did, you know. They kind of put all their efforts in me because I'm significantly older than my sister, who came only much later, older than my sister who came only much later, and you know they put in all their efforts and resources, money and time in my chest.

Susan: 19:47

You know they didn't have a car. You know, throughout all my childhood In fact, I was the first one who had a car, much, much later, obviously, and we didn't have a summer home. Also, until the kids were pretty much grown up already, he had very little time to spend with friends or even family. As a matter of fact. In fact, my father often had a second or a third job to save up money for being able to take me to tournaments or pay for coaches or chess books. Even so, it's a tremendous sacrifice. From more so, the parent's perspective and I think a lot of parents either don't even realize it how much sacrifice it really takes to succeed on an extreme level, or they are not willing to do it or unable to do it for one reason or another.

Daniel: 20:42

Yeah, those are lots of great insights there into your father's approach. There's something you said just now, as well as in the book, that I think is really fascinating, which is that for as eager as your father was to see you all succeed, he didn't chastise you if you made mistakes or lost games. If I'm remembering correctly, it was more just important that you showed up and put in the work that was asked, but he didn't really.

Susan: 21:07

Yeah, exactly that was his approach that whatever work that you can do and you should do is before it's in the training time. So when, when you go to a tournament or to a game, you have to be calm and you have to be able to show off what you learned, it's the training time when he was sometimes, you know, reminding us of reminding me of that. Work harder, focus more. You know, do your very best in training as well, because whatever you do in training will be reflected in the result of the tournament. So that's where he was, let's say, tough or strict when it came to training, but when it comes to the tournament or the result of the game, all he would say is well, you see, you have to work harder, you, you know you have to work more, or things like that, but not the, you know, the game itself.

Susan: 22:06

or when I was very young, if I didn't focus, you know yeah because when I was really young, at in the beginning, you know, I was very curious, you know, and I was in that chess club and you know, door opens and I was wondering, oh, who came in. You know, door opens and I was wondering, oh, who came in.

Daniel: 22:21

You know, what is the?

Susan: 22:22

person wearing. You know, things like that. You know so that he would obviously be not happy about. But it's not the result itself, but it's the why about the result.

Daniel: 22:35

Sure, yeah, and I know you know in your book you talk a lot about you know how your father helped you and your sisters excel at chess and we're talking about it here and he deserves a lot of amazing credit for what he did. That said, I still want to give you your credit and focus a bit on you and your own attributes to all that you've accomplished. What do you feel separate from what he gave you, allowed you to achieve what you've achieved?

Susan: 23:02

Well, I think, in addition to the passion and the work ethic which you just talked about, it's that I developed this never give up attitude, and I think that's really, really key. I guess I didn't like to lose, I enjoyed winning, so that's part of it, of course, but it's a little bit more than that, because obviously nobody likes to lose. It just somehow became stronger that, even in positions when others may resign, or even if not literally resign, but mentally resign, I realized, maybe partly because I had situations when I thought I'm winning right and all of a sudden my opponent tricked me last minute and I felt how painful that was to me and I said, okay, I'm going to learn from this. So what does it mean? A game is never over until it's over. So what does it mean A game is never over until it's over, and I'm going to fight until I feel that is the last chance to turn this around.

Susan: 24:08

And soon enough I realized that others are no different than me, in some ways right, and there is a possibility that somebody else also may get overconfident and make a mistake, even in a seemingly winning position, and I may save the game to a draw or occasionally even turn it all around and win the game, and I figured, you know, even if I can save half a was kind of my own discovery, so to say, somehow a method for myself on how to handle those adversities, how not to make myself overly upset but rather in fact use it as fuel to prove people wrong. So I think those are kind of the two qualities that I learned to develop on my own that helped me succeed, and also the fact that I learned to take pride in what I do. You know, if I do something, I like to do it right, and that's whether I cook a good Hungarian meal or you know anything else I do. I like to do things right or not to do it at all.

Daniel: 25:36

Yeah, I mean this actually overlaps with the next question I was going to ask you but you've already identified it which is this never-give-in attitude that you have. But I'm going to reframe the question just a little bit, since you covered that ground somewhat. It seems to me that you were able to take that attitude beyond just the chessboard and, as you said, the challenges that you faced personally, and I was struck by these in the book, how much there was this is definitely I didn't fully realize the extent of it until I read your book that throughout the 70s and 80s, facing resistance from chess institutions themselves the Hungarian Chess Federation, FIDE but you still took that never given attitude beyond just the board and towards those challenges, and I think that's incredible. So do you feel like chess helped develop that attitude for you in other areas of life that would be needed for you?

Susan: 27:24

Probably so.

Susan: 27:25

Yes, and I remember and I think the story I also mentioned in the book that you know because of our difficult family history mention in the book that you know because of our difficult family history.

Susan: 27:37

I remember my grandma, my maternal grandma, had made a big impact on me that when I had tough times, you know, in my career or even personally, she managed to put things in perspective for me.

Susan: 27:50

She reminded me that if you think you have it tough, you don't understand what tough is, clearly referring back to the Holocaust times that she had to endure and luckily survive. So I think putting things in perspective became a very important part of my life. That, whether I lose a painful game or even later on in my personal life, a breakup or something like that, putting things in perspective I think is a really important thing and also something that eventually I learned throughout my life, probably more so in my adult life, is the importance of balance, and that's whether intellectual pursuits versus physical fitness, spending time on your career versus your family or many different parts of life. I think putting things in perspective and finding the right balance or even in chess right between attacking and defending or things like that, spending time on different aspects of the game. So finding that balance, I think, is key.

Daniel: 29:05

Yeah, yeah. So now I just want to talk about your career a little bit more broadly and beyond even just the early years. It sounded like reading your book that for a long time you were on a mission to earn the GM title and you wrote that earning that title was what you had wanted more than anything. And a few things struck me about it, but one of those is that with your talent, I felt like you could have had a whole range of different goals to set your sights on as a chess player, and you had chosen the GM title as your kind of your guiding light. Why was the GM title the most important one for you during those years?

Susan: 29:47

Well, I was growing up in an environment where, whether it's in the chess clubs, whether it's the chess federation, the media at large, they were looking at me, looking at women chess players at large, that what kind of crazy idea it is for a woman trying to become an ayah, forget a gm or or world champion right, it's. It's like impossible. It's like if I was saying that I want to go to the moon and it really bothered me that I didn't understand why. You know, just because my gender is not male, it's, why should a woman not be able to do that? And I really, really wanted to show the world and even women, to be honest, because I remember when I was already like master level player and I was talking to some other pretty good female chess players and they literally did not believe in themselves or in the female gender as such, that we are capable of accomplishing that, and I really took it as my mission to prove them wrong At some point in my career.

Susan: 31:01

There were two other women who got awarded the title, but they haven't fully completed all the norms and rating requirements, although they are legendary world champions obviously Nanaka Prindashvili and Maya Chiburdanidze, dear friends of mine, great players, but nevertheless they always had that little shadow behind their GM title that they got it partly because they were female world champions. And I wanted to do it as the guys do it, you know, by all the norm requirements or the rating requirements, and I was just honestly shocked that nobody did it before me. But I said, okay, let me do it, you know. And I was so, so, so thrilled when, finally, in January 1991, I made my first I mean sorry, last GM norm and became the first woman to accomplish that feat. I was really determined to show the world that that is possible.

Daniel: 31:57

Yeah, given that, as you said before you, there hadn't been a woman who had achieved it through the norms and rating Right, did you ever have any self-doubt about that? Or were you confident and just knew it was a matter of when?

Susan: 32:11

I was pretty confident, to be honest, because I'm a very logical person and you know, just like I believe that if you practice something you'll get good at it. I believe that I'm seeing other IMs and GMs games. I see they make plenty of mistakes as well. They are human, just like me, right? So I always had this why not attitude? You know, it's not like you know they have three hands or two brains, or you know what I mean.

Susan: 32:42

It's like we kind of have the same tools when it comes to chess. It's a matter of, I think, how much effort you put in in training and then obviously, how much discipline you have during the games or the tournaments themselves. And yeah, I never really doubted it. I thought, and I think that that was kind of a very important thing, that I never doubted it. It was only a matter of time. Yeah, I thought becoming world champion that's different. You know, I think there you need a little bit of extra factor. I mean overall world champion, you know, to be the very best in the whole entire planet, you need that X factor.

Susan: 33:21

you know whether it be your nerves, whether your energy level, whether talent whatever or a combination of different things. You need to have everything. All the stars need to align, you know, to become the overall world champion and obviously even in our history we have only about, I think, 20 or so people that achieve that, even if we count the knockout champions. So it's an extremely hard thing, but I think, to become a grandmaster, I think literally any healthy person who has the passion and is willing to work hard for it can achieve.

Daniel: 34:00

That's wonderful. I love hearing that. Susan, as I was reading your book, I was just in awe of all the different major victories you had competitively, whether over specific individuals or for an entire event, such that it's difficult to pick one to talk about. So I'm curious, then what stands out to you as being meaningful, a meaningful victory, whether it was against an individual or winning an event. When you look back on your career, what do you remember most fondly?

Susan: 34:30

Well, if I just have to pick one game that is really memorable is probably against the legendary Yugoslav grandmaster, yugomir Ubojevic, who was number three in his peak in the world. And the reason why that game stands out not just because he was a much higher rated player at the time we played and that he was a legendary player, but also that prior to the tournament that we played that game and it was a super tournament with Anatoly Karpov and other top players of the time he said in an interview that he was questioning the organizers that how is it possible that they are inviting female player. And, you know, I felt maybe I should show him why. And and the fact that I succeeded in doing so, and not not just the result that I won, but the fashion that I was able to win that game. It really is very dear to my heart to this day.

Susan: 35:33

It's a nice game where I kind of made it look like I was a much higher rated player in reality than he was, and as of my results obviously is to winning the Triple Crown, which is meaning winning the Blitz, rapid and Classical World Championships, and, surprisingly, I was actually the first person to ever to complete that trifecta and the second person who was able to win in all three formats was, 18 years later, magnus Carlsen, and then, just very recently, a couple months ago, juven Jun was the second woman to do it. So, interestingly, it's a very hard thing to do, just like in, let's say, racing. You know, it doesn't happen really that a marathon runner would also win the hundred meter dash as well as the 5k.

Susan: 36:29

I see so it's kind of somewhat requires different skills to be really good in blitz and in classical time control as well as in rapid. So probably that's that's really memorable. And then, of course, that I'm really proud that I'm still the only person to have all six crowns, in addition to having the triple crown, winning Chess Olympiad, the team gold medal as well as individual gold and being a number one player in the world. So I'm really proud of those things I accomplished.

Daniel: 37:04

Rightfully so. Yeah, just a question about that. As you said, it doesn't happen often. The triple crown doesn't happen often because it's a little bit of a different skill set, even at that level. So did you feel like you had to close the gap in one of them, a little bit like train a little harder, say in Rapid or Blitz, or were you just naturally able to do all three?

Susan: 37:22

Well, actually I was fortunate because I grew up with the school of thought that Bronstein and Mikhail Tal represented, in contrary to, let's say, the Botvinnik School of Chess.

Susan: 37:34

That was forbidding to play blitz. So it was a very controversial topic when I was growing up in the 1970s because a lot of coaches forbid their students to play chess, based on the Botvinnik recommendation. But my father, who was coordinating my training, even though he wasn't my main coach after a while he was very much in the school that believed that practice is practice, chess is chess and Blitz is a good way to actually get a lot of practice in, to practice your openings in many games. Obviously it would take forever to try out your different openings in classical games that nobody would have the time to do so. In blitz you can play 10 20 games in the same time as in one classical game. So actually my training consisted of a significant amount of Blitz practice as well. Rapid didn't really exist for the, I guess, first 10 decade of my life really, or even further than that, but Blitz was a very important part of my chest training and I think that helped obviously.

Daniel: 38:49

I see. One thing that stood out to me from your book is that you said one of your favorite ways to win in your early years was to come back from a losing position. I'm curious if that stayed true for you throughout your career.

Susan: 39:03

Well, it was more so obviously in the early years that you know it was, I guess, just psychologically felt good to come back from the dead you know bouncing kiss goodbye already to a game that okay.

Susan: 39:17

What to do? I'm losing, you know, and then, all of a sudden, if a window of opportunity shows up where you know, it felt really good to take advantage of it. Of course, I was on the other side of it many times as well, so it was a nice feeling, but of course I learned soon enough that I'd rather try to avoid getting there in first place as of back positions.

Daniel: 39:43

Did something replace it? Was there like later, in later, later years, as you say? I mean, you don't want to get into a losing position anyway, but was there a different type of win that eventually became your favorite?

Susan: 39:57

Well, I really enjoy games I win when it's a brilliant combination that ends the game, like in that. My probably all-time favorite game is against Maja Ciburdanidze. That I played in the Calvia Chess Olympiad in 2004, where I made a series of sacrifices that led to a winning endgame. Yeah, that's really a good feeling. Unfortunately, that's a rare occasion, I think, in most people's career.

Daniel: 40:28

So, talking about the later years of your competitive career now, in 1996, you won the World's Chess Championship, but unfortunately in 1999, fide prevented you from defending your title by insisting that the event be held during a time when you needed to recover from your pregnancy, and in your book you said that at that point you had had enough of professional chess. I'm curious if you would talk a little bit about this period for when you decided not to pursue competitive chess anymore, specifically like how much of that was just being fed up with frustrating treatment after frustrating treatment from chess federations, versus just feeling like you had accomplished most of what you had wanted to competitively anyhow at that point.

Susan: 41:10

Well, probably a little bit of both, and also the fact, being a brand new mother, I wanted to take care the best I can for my son and also living in America by that time I really felt that me winning more championships are not necessarily the best way to spend my time. I really felt that, using my celebrity status, at least within the world of chess, maybe I have the opportunity to spread the word about chess, to increase the popularity of the game, to become an ambassador for the game, I think, while there are always new champions and I could win more championships, but I felt that at the time there weren't enough good ambassadors for the game and that became my new passion and my motivation to try to get chess to the mainstream. And and I'm so happy to see that obviously partly some to due to my activities, but not just. Obviously there are plenty of other people today who do a great job and chess has become, I don't know, maybe a hundred times more popular than in the mid-90s. It was.

Susan: 42:28

So what happened in the popularity of chess in America in the 1972-1975 time? When Bobby Fischer became world champion? Chess was at an all-time high in popularity. It was in all kinds of evening shows. It was all over in front pages of different magazines, in mainstream magazines, you know.

Susan: 42:52

And then, unfortunately, after Bobby Fischer retired and he was very controversial by the time I moved to the US in the well, about 25 years later, all of that kind of vanished and chess was viewed kind of as a sport for geeks, you know, intelligent people, but kind of somewhat strange people, it's almost exclusively men.

Susan: 43:21

So there was on one hand not much popularity to it and that had some negative connotations to it as well. And you know as much as I love chess, it really hurt me and I I thought I wanted to do something about it to change the perception, to get it the game a a better rap and and get it more popular. And and that is why I I participated and created a number of events. You know I had the Battle of the Sexes. I had Chess for Peace, which involved not just Anatoly Karpov and myself but former Russian President Gorbachev. I did a world record simul in Florida where I played 326 opponents simultaneously. That got mainstream attention. So I was looking out for activities and events that raises attention, positive attention for the game, and so that kind of became my mission beyond being just a player.

Daniel: 44:25

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Beyond being just a player. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean that part of your career is just as impressive and exciting to me as your competitive history. And yeah, you mentioned you talk about that in the book that you know around that time as you're not competing as much anymore basically that you want to elevate the stature of professional chess in America and I mean that's such an incredible goal. I mean, of course I'm biased as a chess fan, but I love that as a goal and I'm just curious what are some of the ways that you feel you've moved the country in that direction?

Susan: 44:58

But in addition to the events I already just mentioned, also, I founded the Susan Polgar Foundation in 2002. And through the foundation we did a lot of events. We were trying to expand the grassroots movement. There were very few girls and women playing chess at the time. In fact, my foundation came about when the then executive director of the United States Chess Federation, frank Nero, approached me. United States Chess Federation. Frank Nero approached me when realized that there were under 1% of the membership of the US Chess Federation only who are female. Less than 1%.

Daniel: 45:35

Wow.

Susan: 45:36

This is 2002.

Susan: 45:38

And he asked me, helped me to do something about it.

Susan: 45:44

And that's when my foundation was born with the number one purpose to promote chess and especially for girls.

Susan: 45:52

And I'm very proud and happy to say that when we went back 10 years later and checked the numbers, all of a sudden, 10 years later, there were already about 15% of the members of the US Chess Federation female.

Susan: 46:05

So we made a progress and I guess, partly through my foundation's efforts, the first all-girls national tournament championship was approved for my foundation, the Susan Polga Foundation's Girls Invitational, and I'm proud to say that now we're already in over 20 years running that event and through that and other various events of my foundation and I'm proud to say that now we're already in over 20 years running that event and through that and other various events of my foundation, through our partner universities, we have awarded over $7 million in scholarships and cash prizes as well. So you know, I've tried, anywhere and everywhere I went, to spread a good word about and I'm really happy that I'm finding more and more partners, whether it's in Silicon Valley or Hollywood or in the media, that more and more people support chess and there are more and more people playing chess With. That said, obviously the appearance of the internet and even the Netflix series Queen's Gambit was very helpful to have a lot more people interested in chess and follow chess today.

Daniel: 47:21

Well, I mean, that's incredible to take the USCF membership from 1% to 15% in about 10 years. Is that right, about 10 years?

Susan: 47:30

I believe so yes.

Susan: 47:31

That's absolutely incredible, yeah and the other aspect of that conversation with the executive director then was that he managed to convince me to come out of retirement and also to play for the United States just one time.

Susan: 47:44

So, to play for the United States just one time, and indeed in 2004, I played for the US flag. Obviously, I was already mother of two US citizen babies, who were born here in the US. It was my second home and you know we were hoping that, with the example of the US female soccer team when they won the World Cup with Mia Hamm, if we managed to come back with the medals from the Chess Olympiad, then maybe we could have a similar effect in promoting chess for girls in America, chess for girls in America. And so actually I'm proud to say that I came back with four medals. In addition to the team medal, I won also two gold medals individually, and it was. It could have been even more helpful than it was that's a whole other story but it didn't help as much as I hope it would, but nevertheless it helped my foundation raise visibility for chess for girls in the US.

Daniel: 48:52

Well, that's. A very exciting part of the book to me was when you I don't know if it's fair to say came back out of retirement I don't know if that's the appropriate phrase but when you returned to competitive chess, at least for representing the US women's team in the Olympiad. That was such an exciting story Makes me wish I had been back into chess at that time in my life and could have witnessed it happen in real time. It just seemed amazing. But anyway, what do you see in the chess world right now that makes you feel optimistic about women and girls in the game?

Susan: 49:23

Well, I think the fact that there is a lot more support for women's events, there is a lot better prizes than in my days, also the fact that there are a lot more girls playing I think it's very positive in my days that the few girls who did play, they used to be the only ones in that chess club and they used to give up.

Susan: 49:51

Now that at least there is a community that supports each other. So usually each of the female chess players has some friends you know who are also female chess players and they support each other in need and they don't feel lonely. I I really felt that it was a very unnatural, almost unhealthy environment when the female players like myself literally were the only female at the chess club or the only female at most of my tournaments growing up. It's a very unnatural environment which which caused, of course, a lot of you know, difficult situations, including sexual harassment and even some dangerous situations, as I write about it in my book. But I think on that end things are still not perfect but have greatly improved throughout my lifetime.

Daniel: 50:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely it is. I mean, from my perspective, it's interesting to read about the times in your book when you know these issues were even worse for you and for other women and girls, and so it's clear that progress has been made, and yet much more progress still needs to be made. So, on that point, what do you think still needs the most attention or improvement for women and girls in chess?

Susan: 51:09

Well, I think prizes could still be improved, just like in tennis, you know, prizes for US Open are the same for men and women, and because it's not really because of the exact perfection of the game, you know that I think is being judged. Obviously, you know, djokovic, you know, would be a better tennis player than, let's say, the the best female players, right? It's not about that. You know, if you want to see perfect games, you may as well look at the computers playing each other, right?

Susan: 51:44

so it's so because of that, I think if there would be similar prizes, that would be one thing that definitely could be improved. But also, you know, in a dream world, you know if, let's say, there would be a benefactor who would, let's say, give a 10 million dollar endowment and then you know the profits income from that endowment could sponsor, you know, the chess training of the next generation of female chess players. So you know, that's kind of a dream that may or may not come true, but that definitely could improve.

Daniel: 52:20

Yeah, yeah, for sure, susan. There's like one big question I still want to ask you like to kind of close the main part of our interview out, and it's based on a quote from your book that I really liked, which is as you were describing your competitive years in chess. You said that few things give you more pleasure than chasing a difficult goal. That quote stood out to me. I absolutely love that statement, assuming that's still true for you today. Do you have a difficult goal right now that you're chasing?

Susan: 52:49

Well, I think it's the things we discussed. It's to further Bimish Chas through my foundation that's an ongoing goal and then also to spread my message of the book, to encourage people, to inspire people, especially the next generations. Uh, I, I think that's that's kind of my dream, that through my example, if I could do it, anybody can do it.

Daniel: 53:19

That's amazing. I love it. And then just one one last spontaneous question I guess I'm I was wrong is one more which you know a three-year process of writing this book. It's an incredible book. I've read it. I recommend it to everybody listening. I hope they go out and get it. It is phenomenal. What's one thing that you really enjoyed about writing this book?

Susan: 53:40

Oh, that's an easy question. The answer is that I discovered so much about my family history details. The cutest one was discovering how my father learned chess, how he discovered chess. So he was a freshman in high school and one of the first days of his freshman year a pretty girl came up to him saying that we need a force on our chess team. Come join the chess club. And he looked at her you know very good looking girl and he says I'd love to, but I don't know how to play chess. And she assured him don't worry, we'll teach you. We just need a force body. We cannot have a team without four people. And the rest is history. He learned chess a little bit. Obviously he lost almost all his games the first year except the last one. And you know, by the end of high school he had managed to win most of his games, but obviously he never took it very seriously, even afterwards. But that's how he discovered chess and without that, you know, my story may be just very different.

Daniel: 54:54

Without this girl asking your father to play on the team. Huh, that's funny. That's amazing that you didn't know that story until you wrote the book.

Susan: 55:01

Yeah, exactly, and I really discovered a lot more little details about my family or even about my own life that I forgot or didn't know in the first place.

Daniel: 55:12

So yeah, Susan, I've enjoyed our conversation so much. I'm going to finish our talk with a series, a segment and a series of questions that I do with all of my guests, which is just a series of rapid questions are meant to be fun, relatively easy, although a couple can be, can have people think and wonder. So my first question in that segment knights or bishops?

Susan: 55:36

I love horses, I love horseback riding, so I guess knights.

Daniel: 55:41

That's a good reason. What's your favorite time control to play?

Susan: 55:45

Blitz.

Daniel: 55:47

What's your favorite opening to play as white? Whichever helps me win depending on the opponent, I assume yes. Yeah, what's your favorite opening to play as black? I guess same answer or different answer same answer okay, it really depends who I play in one word, how would you describe your playing style? Practical? What's one book you wish more chess players would read?

Susan: 56:14

Rebel Queen.

Daniel: 56:15

Yep, just kidding. I figured it had to be Rebel Queen, right.

Susan: 56:19

No, no. But on a more serious note in general, the classics. I think it's really important to read the books like by capablanca or alakine or batwinic, those, even though the analysis itself may be incorrect in compared to the engine analysis today. But the approach, the insights, thinking process you can learn a lot from and I think that ultimately didn't change that much.

Daniel: 56:51

Yeah, who is your favorite player of all time?

Susan: 56:56

I don't think I have one. I like good games and I like to learn from the best, and each generation has its best player, so I wouldn't want to name just one.

Daniel: 57:07

That's fine. If you could play any great player of the past who is no longer alive, who would it be?

Susan: 57:15

Well, I'm in a very fortunate position that actually I did play most of the legends, starting from Smyslov to Tal and Bobby Fischer, anatoly Karpov, you know, and others you know, but the ones who I never had a chance to meet or play is probably Capablanca.

Daniel: 57:33

Oh, nice, nice. If you had to choose a career other than chess, what would it be?

Susan: 57:40

Probably being a motivational speaker.

Daniel: 57:43

Excellent choice. Could definitely see that. And then my final question of this interview if a chess genie existed and could grant you any one chess wish, what would you wish for?

Susan: 57:54

and it can be anything in chess, not just your own skill probably what I mentioned before to have a benefactor that would support women's chess in particular in perpetuity by establishing an endowment. I think that that could be revolutionary, because one of the problems why we don't have that many top-level female chess players is the numbers game, that there are very few women who take chess seriously.

Susan: 58:25

So, there are obviously much less women who play period, but even of the ones who play, very few have really the opportunity to devote themselves to the game or to get the right training or the right playing opportunities and I think if we have more of that, I think we'd see more women succeed.

Daniel: 58:47

Yeah, that's a fantastic answer and wish Susan. I just want to say thank you so much for being on this show. It was a great, great honor having you. I so appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and my audience, and I mean just everything you've done in chess has been special and amazing, and I know that will continue to be true for you, and I encourage everyone to check out your book Rebel Queen. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Susan: 59:11

Thank you. Thank you, my pleasure.

Daniel: 59:16

Thanks for listening. This has been a production of my Business, adult Chess Academy, and that has a website with the same name. If you want to look for it, you can also find me being way too active on Twitter by searching my username, lona underscore chess See you next week.