How to Build Attacking Intuition w/ WGM Thalia Cervantes Landeiro

117 Hailing from Cuba, and now one of the top American women players, WGM Thalia Cervantes is a chess powerhouse. For the past four years, she’s been invited to and played at the elite US Women’s Chess Championship.

And her competitive pursuits are nowhere near finished. Thalia is working diligently with a coach to earn her IM title, with one norm already achieved.

She’s also just released her first Chessable course, called, “Building an Attacking Intuition in Chess,” a subject we explore at length in the second half of the episode.

We also discuss:

• How a club player can develop an attacking intuition through pattern recognition.
• Thalia’s thoughts on her performance at the 2024 US Women’s Chess Championship (and how she prepares for these events.)
• The highlights of her early years in the thriving Cuban chess culture and the importance of Capablanca.
• Her plans post-college and what goes into earning the IM title.

More From Thalia:

• Chessable Course: Building an Attacking Intuition in Chess
• Instagram

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Transcript

Daniel: 0:05

Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show. It's all about helping adult improvers. I want to make learning chess easier for you to navigate, and I also want you to have a more fun experience along the way. I'm your host, daniel Lona, a fellow chess amateur. Let's get to it. This show is sponsored by chesscom, the world's largest chess community. One of chesscom's most popular features is called Game Review. This feature weaves together a lot of benefits. In one post-game analysis, for example, you can see how accurately you played, whether you made any moves that were deemed brilliant or great, which makes me feel a lot better about my chess when I get one of those. And Game Review also offers a virtual coach that gives insights on every move. It'll also show you alternate lines that would have been better for you to help you understand how you can improve your game. So go on chesscom, play a game and try out the Game Review. Welcome to this week's show.

Daniel: 1:04

In this episode, we have the highly accomplished woman grandmaster Talia Cervantes Lantero. Talia was born and raised in Cuba. She began playing chess at seven years old. She won a bunch of youth championships and by 2014, at only age 12, she won the under-19 Susan Polgar Invitational. This led to her and her family moving to the US shortly thereafter. Specifically, she moved to St Louis for its thriving chess scene, and since 2021, she has been invited to each year's US Women's Chess Championship, which means she has been invited and competed at that championship four times already, and in 2022, she placed third at that event. In the first half of this episode, talia and I talk about her experiences competing at the US Women's, including her thoughts on her performance at the event this past fall. We also discuss the highlights of her rapid rise in chess in her early days in Cuba, plus what her experience has been like in St Louis.

Daniel: 2:05

Then, in the second half of the episode, we talk about why it's important to develop an attacking intuition and how you can do that, even as a club player. This includes diving into her chessable course on this very topic, a course that I highly recommend checking out. I went through some of it myself. It is excellent. A link to that will be in the show notes. And just one correction in advance on my part In my chat with Talia, I mistakenly referred to the course as Building Attacking Initiative in chess, when the word I meant to say was intuition. So I should have said Building Attacking Intuition in chess when I cited her course name. My apologies for that, but I just wanted to correct that in advance. Anyhow, I think you'll really enjoy my discussion with Talia. She's had an incredibly accomplished chess career. She's down to earth, insightful, and you can tell there's a lot more exciting stuff ahead of her, even though she's already accomplished a lot. Here's my interview with Talia. Enjoy, I'm excited to have you on the podcast today. How are you doing?

Thalia: 3:06

Hello, I'm doing good. Thank you so much for having me here.

Daniel: 3:09

Yeah, my pleasure Thrilled to chat with you. You've had such an impressive competitive career and chess journey so I couldn't be more excited to talk about all of it with you. So thank you very much for being on the show, of course, thank you.

Thalia: 3:30

Yeah, you know, I think I'll just start with this question before I dive into all the main. Of course, thank you. Every single day try to find some sort of balance between my school life and chess itself. This week, on Monday, I had training with my coach for a few hours, so that felt really good getting into the rhythm, and after that I have been mostly just doing puzzles online, checking on recent chess tournaments. I try to stay updated with what's going on, but it's difficult to find big chunks of time where I can focus only on chess. But when I do find those, I try to work on calculation, check my lines, and we still have our group training here at the university. So I try to at least have a little bit of chess every single day.

Daniel: 4:26

That's awesome. Yeah, that's fantastic. You said you're working with a coach.

Thalia: 4:31

My university. We have two main coaches and I was meeting with our assistant coach, Darius Schwiertz very strong grandmaster, also has a lot of really good chessable courses and we have been working together for a couple of years now. It's not really a secret and, no, he's amazing and we were working on some lines, working on calculation, earlier this week.

Daniel: 4:56

Awesome. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to ask you. I know what club players often work on with their coaches. It's typically game review is like the most common thing, but I didn't know at your level what's common to work on with with their coaches. It's typically game review is like the most common thing, but I didn't know at your level what's common to work on with a coach yes, so we still do.

Thalia: 5:11

We still do a lot of game review. I just haven't played a tournament since the very start of this year. My last tournament was the pan-american collegiate chess championship in January and we went over games from that tournament. Before that I had played some other tournaments and we also checked some games briefly. It's always very nerve-wracking, even at this point, because you are almost seeing the raw reaction of your coach, seeing your moves, and you're like, oh my goodness, is he going to say something about this move that I made, is he not? But we're working through those. In general, we have a plan for upcoming tournaments and the rest of the year, and for me it's mostly about, like I said, trying to find some balance between school life and chess.

Daniel: 5:58

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, there's so much to talk about with your chess life. It's hard to know where to begin, sometimes with guests like you who are awesome that way. But one thing I'd like to start with is your most recent participation in the 2024 US Women's Chess Championship, obviously in a very exciting event to be a part of.

Daniel: 6:16

And you've been part of several now right, if I'm not mistaken, since 2021 through 2024. Yeah, so I guess it's only been about four months since you finished and for those who aren't familiar, I know you know what happened. But just for my audience, you placed fifth of 10 players with a score of five and a half, and that even puts you ahead of Grandmaster Irina Krush and previous winner Jennifer Yu. So, overall, how did you feel about your performance?

Thalia: 6:41

Overall, I'm very happy about this 2024 USS Women's Championship. As mentioned, I have already participated in the tournament quite a few times and it's really an honor that I get to qualify and play such a prestigious tournament, especially here in St Louis, which is where I also live and for the past 10 years or so I have been attending the St Louis Chess Club. I work with the St Louis Chess Club, so it's always nice to play there as well. Such an incredible event and overall, I would say that this tournament was the balance that I needed because I finished fifth. Obviously, it's not first. At the same time, it's not last, but I have come to this tournament and gotten very different results throughout the years.

Thalia: 7:30

First time I participated, in 2021, I believe I got seventh or tied for seventh, which was okay with me. It was just my first year. 2022 was incredible. I had a streak of five wins and I finished on third place, so that was the best performance that I have had so far and, incredibly enough, 2023, I finished in last place. It was the worst, probably the worst tournament that I've ever had.

Thalia: 7:59

So it's very peculiar, all of these ups and downs, and I think this 2024 edition was the balance that I was looking for and in a way, it's something that I was trying to prove myself also. I can not only have these incredible peaks, but also I can establish myself as a player amongst all of these incredible, incredible competitors. So I'm very happy with the results and it's a good balance, a good ground, and then for the years to come I'll try to get back into the podium.

Daniel: 8:34

Right, right, yeah, it's a fantastic performance. Yeah, a couple of things about that. One thing you said that kind of perked my ears is that you had your best performance, I think you said in 22 and then the worst in 23.

Daniel: 8:47

And I don't think you're alone in that. I've seen that with some of the other players, where they do really well, like you know, maybe the top two or three and then bottom two or three a year or two later Does that make this event just very hard to. I don't want to say predict, but sort of anticipate how you'll do.

Thalia: 9:07

Yes, yeah for sure. In general, I would say that the level in the United States just keeps increasing, whether it's for men or women. It just keeps increasing every year and at the same time, in our tournament, because it's the top 12, it's a very close, very tight race and from first place in the rankings to 12th, it's very close in rating, very close in strength as well. So it's very common also that you might see us in one place for one edition and then in a very different one for another edition.

Thalia: 9:37

I think, for the most part, it depends on how much we have been working on chess and how we're feeling for this tournament, specifically Because I know that in 2022, I was still very busy with school, but I was putting in a lot of work into the tournament. 2023, I think I picked up a few different projects and I was still looking forward to the US championship a lot, but I remember that I was playing my games and going back to my hotel room to take exams and it was just very overwhelming. So I think it really depends on on how much your, how much time you can put into into the preparation for the tournament. It's not the tournament itself, also the preparation that comes before it.

Daniel: 10:26

I can't even imagine having to do an exam for anything, especially college, but right after a game. I mean, that just seems like. I mean I'm usually just collapsing onto the bed for hours after a game. How do you do something like that? I mean, do you just ride off of adrenaline from the game that you were playing?

Thalia: 10:45

Actually, yes, I feel like a lot of times I'm nervous going into a game, but after I finish it I still have a little bit of adrenaline.

Thalia: 10:53

It goes away kind of quickly, but I still have a little bit of adrenaline, maybe for an hour or two where my feelings are still very heightened. And that's usually how I was getting my work done In general, as a person like you tell me what I need to do and I'll do it, and then, after it's done, I will realize oh, wow, that was a lot. Or finally, after it's done, I will calm down, sit down, internalize everything and then go to rest but this is something that I have actually noticed from my games and my tournaments everything and and then go to rest. But this is something that I have actually noticed from from my games and my tournaments. I don't like drinking coffee or tea during games or anything, but I try to like somehow I just have energy left over at the end. So maybe it's just me being hyperactive, maybe it's something else, but I try yeah, I try to to balance, balance it all, yeah.

Daniel: 11:45

Yeah Well, it's an impressive work ethic and I guess it's also helpful that it doesn't catch up to you until afterwards, so that's good In terms of going into an event like this. I mean, like you said, I mean this is an extremely competitive event. Every player there wants to win first. So do you have goals going into this beyond that, like anything like specific that you're trying to aim for yourself in terms of performance or habits, or anything like that?

Thalia: 13:03

I feel like there are certain things that every year I try to test almost in tournaments like this, I try to improve, like is my opening work paying off, right, is my calculation paying off, and things like that. Have I been able to improve certain areas throughout the years? Or, if I'm struggling against a player in particular, have I overcome that? So it's a very important testing ground for me, this US championship, but at the same time, it really focuses on the preparation that I do before the tournament specifically, and in my case, I know that I need a lot of calculation training in order to get into the rhythm and the psychology and the mindset of playing chess and basically giving it your all for one particular tournament.

Daniel: 14:10

Interesting. Yeah, you said that you try to get back into the rhythm. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. My impression was just that you compete pretty regularly throughout the year, as is.

Thalia: 14:18

I do. Honestly, I can't stay too far away from chess. That's just not going to work for me. But there are periods, right, because I, like I said, still a college student and especially in the summers I play a lot of chess. I am all over the place.

Thalia: 14:36

My mom doesn't get to see me much over the summer anyways, because I'm traveling and playing tournaments but especially during the school year it can be very difficult and there might be periods where there are no tournaments that come up or interest me or simply I am not feeling ready for a tournament because, as I said, it requires a lot of preparation and if I don't feel like I have done that level of preparation, I don't know what the outcome is going to be for a tournament. So there are periods where I am playing quite a lot and periods where maybe periods of like a month or two where I haven't played a tournament and I want to make sure that for the big events that I'm playing warmed up and I'm in the rhythm of playing chess and my openings are working well, I can see if my calculation is good during games time management, things like that.

Daniel: 15:28

Yeah, how much time would you say in terms of weeks or months do you spend preparing in advance before the US Women's For the US Women's, I would say about a month beforehand.

Thalia: 15:42

I'm already focused on the tournament, thinking a lot about any specific changes that I need to make or any specific preparation that I'm going to do for the tournament. I try to set everything so that I have the time to study and prepare. So if I have schoolwork, I'll try to put it aside before this month window, and if I have other works, other projects related to chess, I try to almost clear out my calendar and make sure that I have time to seriously prepare for a tournament like this.

Daniel: 16:19

Yeah, and, as we mentioned, you're competing in a good number of tournaments throughout the year and, of course, throughout your career. There's a lot of events that you go to. Where does the US Women's fall for you amongst everything? Is there something else that's maybe even more significant for you, or just where does it fall in the scheme of things in terms of big events that you compete at?

Thalia: 16:40

yes, so the us women's is extremely special to me. It's just a tournament here in st louis, in my home, and it's incredible just the fact that I get to play with the top players in the united states. It's, it's just wonderful. It's the one tournament that I look forward to every single year. But I love participating in all sorts of events, so especially international tournaments, places that I've never been to before. I try to go and put on my best performance.

Thalia: 17:18

I have not been able to play a tournament like the Chess Olympiad, where you go with the team to a different country, you represent your nation, and things like that. I did play one time the online Olympiad, and that felt very special too. It's a shame that it was online because it was back in 2021. But that felt very, very special as well. And I would say tournaments also yes, tournaments that are team events. So, for example, here at St Louis University, because I'm part of the chess team, we play the intercollegiate Pan Am tournament every single year, which basically is a tournament between universities, amongst universities, and being able to represent mine is a huge honor. So those tournaments really, really mean a lot to me. But I think I've mentioned every single kind of tournament. So I just get excited whenever I'm playing.

Thalia: 18:23

Whichever one it is, I'll try to put as much emotion and carry into it as I can and do my best.

Daniel: 18:31

That's awesome. I like hearing that perspective. I can understand why the US women know have a little extra, but I love that they're, all you know, a big deal for you. So what I'd like to talk about next is your chess journey from the beginning, your chess origin story, so to speak, how it all began for you. One thing that stood out to me as I was reading about that aspect of your life and I know there's not like the full story, that's why I'm talking to you but one thing that was published that stood out to me is that you studied under a grandmaster as a child, which I think is probably a little more on the rare side. So how did that come to be?

Thalia: 19:05

Yeah, so I am originally from Havana, cuba, and I learned to play chess in Havana. They had a lot of after school chess programs or even chess programs during regular physical exercise classes and things like that. And it all has to do from the influence that Capablanca José Real Capablanca, third world champion had in the game in our country and I just realized that I loved chess from the very first moment that I played it. It was insane because basically it was six-year-old me. At school I didn't know anything about chess. They presented to me for the first time, I think, my first game. I remember this very, very vividly. Actually. I was playing with the white pieces against a friend and it was E4, e5. And I took the pawn on E5 with my pawn on e4, because nobody told me that pawn stood diagonally. I learned that later but somehow afterwards I managed to win that game.

Thalia: 20:09

I went home, I told my mother and she immediately put me in a chess institute that there was in Havana, because she realized how excited I was about playing chess. And the great thing about chess culture in Cuba is that it's literally everywhere, so you can walk on the streets, at the parks, you're going to see chess players A lot of times people after work 4 or 5 pm, they just decide to bring the chess set out and play with their neighbors and things like that. So chess was all around for me and I never thought that I could be able to play it, because you have to sit down for so long, you have to calculate every single step and I just didn't think that it was for me. I'm not sure exactly why at the time, like why I was having such a philosophical realization at six years old, but I thought that it was too intricate. But also the competitive side in me was really excited about this game and I wanted to keep learning more about it. I wanted to win more games and that required studying more. And when I was put in this chess institute in Havana I was able to learn alongside many other kids. So that gave me motivation to keep going, because there was a circle to some sort of union amongst us. But at the same time there were other kids that I could compete with and that gave me a lot of motivation. But at the same time there were other kids that I could compete with and that gave me a lot of motivation.

Thalia: 21:38

I was in a chess institute for a few years. I won a few championships, like scholastic championships for the province of Havana. I was the best girl from ages seven to nine years old more or less years old, more or less and then I started training under the tutelage of Grandmaster Walter Ardensivia who is this Grandmaster, yes, that I studied with, and he was a world junior champion. I believe he was back in the 80s and he was incredible. I learned a lot from him, no-transcript, and it was very peculiar because he left Cuba at the same time that my family left for the United States. So it's almost as if our paths, you know like, had gone together up until that moment in the summer of 2014. And then we both went our separate ways. I think he's still coaching. He's coaching the women's chess in UAE, if I'm not mistaken.

Daniel: 23:02

Oh yeah, that's what I was going to ask where he went to.

Thalia: 23:04

Yeah, very, very peculiar path, but, funny enough, we we coincided in an airport in 2019. It was, it was wild. I just saw him in the in the gate and I was like wow, is that you? And he was like yeah, and we took a picture. We caught up a little bit and I think it's really important to always, you know, still thank and appreciate the coaches or the people that have helped you in the past, and for me, something that I always tried to do was take the best out of every coach that I had, and with Walter in particular, I have a lot of great memories and a lot of affection, and I think he definitely took my chess to the next level. I feel like before I enjoyed chess. It was what I liked to do when I was a kid and then, with him, it almost became something that I was very passionate about and I considered in my career. So, yeah, he was a wonderful influence and it's a part of my life in Cuba that I will always remember.

Daniel: 24:08

Yeah, that's amazing. I love that story. That's an incredible story. Just going kind of a little bit back towards the beginning there did anyone in your household play chess?

Thalia: 24:18

No, funny enough, nobody played chess in my house. I just happened to learn it at school, and the thing is that I lived in Cuba, in this apartment complex apartment building. So even if my family didn't know how to play chess, I could always go to the lobby or the park behind the building and there would be a bunch of people playing chess. So chess was still around, even if it wasn't specifically inside the home. But even after I I showed this interest in chess, my sister started playing, my mother did everything she could to support me with chess, and basically everybody that I had around me was very, very supportive and did their best to not only understand what I was doing but also try to take me to the next steps try to take me to the next steps.

Daniel: 25:15

That's fantastic. That's great. The other thing I wanted to mention about your story is the chess culture in Cuba, which sounds pretty robust the way you described it, which is fantastic. I think I had one other guest who was from Cuba so far, but that's it, and I don't know if we got too much into what the chess culture was like there, but it is fascinating to know what you said, which is that a lot of that stems from Capablanca, which we're talking about about 100 years ago now at this point, and his influence is still felt there at this point, with chess culture. Huh.

Thalia: 25:44

Yes. So, especially in Havana, it's still a very big part of our culture. Basically, if you ask anybody in Cuba whether they're a chess player or not, I think they will know who Capablanca is. So if you mention chess, they'll be like oh Capablanca, you know, and that's the chess player that they're going to reference. So in Havana in particular, there's this institute for children that I mentioned it's Latin American Institute for Chess Excellence, which is basically where you are almost raised up as a chess player into this culture.

Thalia: 26:17

At the same time, there's a lot of chess hustlers, a lot of casual players. Like I said, in the parks, in streets, in parking lots, in the lobbies of buildings, literally anywhere you're able to find chess. People just love the game, and it's something that is really, really embedded into the Cuban culture. Additionally, there is the Capablanca Chess Club in Havana. I am not sure if it's still running or not because, well, there are a bunch of different issues. I think there were some financial issues with keeping the club running. Maybe the space was used for something else a few years back, but it's the club where a world championship match was played.

Thalia: 27:04

I believe it was Alaska or Capablanca, and Capablanca managed to win, and it happened in Havana. They have this table with the chess set that they played. At the chairs they had a portrait of Capablanca and it was in the heart of Havana basically, so anybody could walk around, appreciate the culture and the history that chess has in Cuba and I am not there anymore, but I hope it's something that still goes on to this day and if I can help at some point in the future I mean, I guess I am already helping I try to promote chess as much as I can with my Cuban heritage and I try to talk about it, but I hope that it's something that I can dedicate some of my time in the future as well, because I feel like throughout Cuba and Latin America in general, there is a lot of talent, a lot of culture that doesn't get to see the light of day Oftentimes we have great players.

Thalia: 28:05

We have great players like Lenier Dominguez, lazaro Brisson, uniesky and Yasser Quesada, who are like grandmasters 26, 2700 level and it's not just them, but also like the kids that are coming up in Cuba. So I hope that the culture keeps rising for sure.

Daniel: 28:25

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a beautiful thing that you're doing, you know, trying to promote Cuban culture, and you know those who have, you know, accomplished a lot in chess in Cuba, with Capablanca being such a strong influence on chess there. Like you said, there's like a big I don't know if it was a painting or a poster that you said that was up on the wall at the club. Would you say he was one of your top chess role models or chess influences growing up, or did you have others that you looked to?

Thalia: 28:52

Capablanca. For sure he was one of them. But since the moment that I got into chess and I heard about his story, my favorite chess player has always been Bobby Fischer. There's no question, no doubt about that. I think he was in my teenage years, or even when I was a kid, like. He was my home screen on my phone for, like you know, five, six, seven years and people would always ask me, oh, like, is that your grandfather or something? And I'm like no, that's just a chess player I like. So, for sure, bobby Fischer is my biggest influence, I would say.

Thalia: 29:26

Also, since I started to understand my chess style more, I realized that I really liked Boris Spassky as well, and this is something interesting, because I almost never hear people talk about Spassky, but I feel like he was just so wonderful. He not only promoted a lot this universal chess style that he was known for, where you can play aggressive chess in certain positions. You can play more technical in other positions. But in general, when you hear about him interviews or written stories, a lot of the information that I got from him, admittedly, was from my great predecessors, by Garry Kasparov.

Thalia: 30:06

A lot of what you hear about him is just so incredible and he just sounds like a great guy, like a true gentleman. So not amazing just on the chessboard but also outside of it. So he's another player that I really enjoy watching his games and learning more about his life. Here in St Louis for a little while we had this exhibition at the World Chess Hall of Fame about the 1972 match and they provided a lot of memorabilia, especially from spassky, and it was just so wonderful to to watch and even to this day I'll I'll say that spassky is another player that I really love and I get weird looks from time to time, but learning about him it's, it's amazing yeah, no, I.

Daniel: 30:51

I love when, when people have as amongst their favorite players people who are not as often talked about, so that's refreshing. Going back to Bobby Fischer, first of all, you're in good company, because he's my favorite player and he's been my biggest influence.

Daniel: 31:04

So I a big reason that I became aware of him and what he had accomplished. But I know you're a bit later in time than me as to when you were growing up and experiencing chess. So how did Bobby Fischer become one of your favorites, given that it had been some decades since his height of fame?

Thalia: 31:27

at that point, yes, well, I will say I have watched the movie, even if I was born a few years later, so I get it.

Thalia: 31:35

But I think it's very interesting actually because, as I said, I grew up in Cuba. It's a very small country, not as many resources, especially comparing to the United States right, and a lot of the chess books that I had were from the Soviet times, so like 1960s, 1970s actually. Through them I learned about the old style of chess notation, not just the one that I have today and that we have today, and that's why a lot of times reading these older books becomes very easy for me, because it's that notation of like pawn king four, something like that right, or pawn four something like that right, right or pawn four king, I guess.

Thalia: 32:16

But yeah, so in a lot of these older books you read, you learn a lot about, like, the soviet chess. There are a lot of stories about soviet chess and then all of a sudden there is like this one american guy that is disrupting all of the domination that the Soviets have and I just thought that was very impressive, just being so revolutionary to the world of chess, like completely taking it by storm. The impact that he had was incredible and obviously the games itself, the sacrifices that he made, the brilliances that he had, were just like breathtaking to me. And especially, I feel like, especially when you're a, when you're a child or when you're getting started into chess, you love that romantic chess style of like attacking, sacrificing, going for the win, defense strategy doesn't matter. So a lot of his sacrifices really spoke to me and I thought it was just so, so incredible. It was something that I had never seen before and it sticks to me to this day.

Daniel: 33:25

Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic hearing all your reasons for that. So I just want to talk a little bit about your time in St Louis. For those who don't know, you moved to the US in 2014. I guess that'd be my first question Did you move directly to St Louis when you moved to the US?

Thalia: 33:42

Yes, because I was invited to a tournament here in St Louis. It was a tournament from the Susan Pogger Foundation. It was this girls' invitational event and my family came to the United States. We came to St Louis for this particular tournament and, honestly, we didn't know that there was such a chess scene here in St Louis and we didn't really know about the St Louis Chess Club, the World Chess Hall of Fame, and as soon as we got to the city and we saw all of the support that chess had, we just realized that this was the place to be and I have to be very thankful to my mother once again. My family, because they supported me even though we had just moved to the United States, started a new life and you know, being able to stay in St Louis and being able to call it home Tuesdays is an honor yeah, that's, that's fantastic, you know.

Daniel: 34:41

So you've been there for, I guess, a little over a decade now. Yeah, how do you feel like it's helped you as a player? I imagine it makes a difference being in a city like that versus just some random city in the United States that doesn't have a strong chess culture, but I'm curious in what ways you feel it's helped you.

Thalia: 34:58

Yes, it's just really fascinating, even the atmosphere that is around the chess club here it's the Central West End area we call it, and the chess atmosphere that you can pick up in the Central West End. It's just incredible. And something that I want to mention is that even back then in 2014, when my family had just gotten to the United States, it was only my mother and I here in St Louis. The rest of my family was coming later. We stopped by the St Louis Chess Club and my mom was asking about memberships and how do you get in, how do you attend classes, how do you play with other people? Because we had no idea about how anything worked. I didn't speak English at the time. My mom had like high school knowledge of English and immediately one of the employees at the chess club offered to pay for my annual membership so that I could play chess, especially because they didn't have that many girls young girls that were interested in playing. So that was just a very, very kind gesture.

Thalia: 36:00

I remember it to this day and basically ever since, the chess club has been like a home to me, because not only have I been able to study and learn and improve my chess there, but also I have played a lot of tournaments, from like Friday rapid events to the US Championship, as we were saying, and not only yes. So not only is it a place where I have been able to learn, where I have been able to show my skills, but it's also been the place where I work. Since 2019, officially I have been working for the St Louis Chess Club. I've done a little bit of everything as an instructor, I give group lectures, I have done streams with the Chess Club, I teach summer camps, so it has been able to basically grow me as a person and as a chess player, and without the support that I have had throughout the years, I don't think I'll be able to be here. You wouldn't be acknowledging any of my accomplishments, because there wouldn't be any.

Thalia: 37:03

So the chess club plays a huge part in that, and I hope that I'm able to stay in St Louis for many more years and that the club still is able to to support a lot of up-and-coming players, as well as the the top ones in the country yeah, well, I'm so excited for you that you had that opportunity to to be in st louis.

Daniel: 37:24

You know, have have full access to to the club there and you know, just everything else that brings with it. That's, that's really great. Yes, in fact, I'm a little envious. I'd love to live in a city like that that has such robust chess culture. It sounds amazing. So, yeah, I'd like to talk about your chessable course that you just published Just last month, at the time that we're recording this just a month ago. The course is called Building the Attacking Initiative, which I mean. That's music to my ears, I love a course on that subject.

Daniel: 37:55

So can you share how this course came to be in terms of the topic?

Thalia: 38:01

Yes. So first of all, I was approached by Chessable and we were trying to come up with ideas for this course, and one great thing is that they had already taken a look into a lot of the material that I had taught with the St Louis Chess Club, and naturally I feel like I always tend to gravitate towards these topics of middle game, but also combined with chess understanding and the psychology of being a chess player, and we somehow arrived to this topic of chess intuition and what it is, because a lot of times you just assume that you're going to know what to do, right, and then the moment arrives, you're at the chessboard, your clock is ticking down, you have no idea what to do and you're just like tanking there thinking about what decision to make. So I was trying to make a course that could help players trust more in their intuition, build it up to a level where they're comfortable following what it says, and it's very interesting because it's something that is difficult to put into words. A lot of times you just get a hint of something and you want to make the move, and then that's it there's no explanation behind it. You want to make the move and then that's it. There's no explanation behind it, but I try to talk about the methodology of you know, building this intuition, trusting in your instincts and how it can carry you through your chess career, and I try to provide examples not just from really great chess players and world champions who clearly have a strong chess intuition, but also normal people like me.

Thalia: 39:38

So I try to show a little bit of everything, and I think my main goal is to appeal to those who have never read or heard about this concept before, because I remember that when I was a kid again, very ambitious, but very, very young as well I would talk to my chess coaches and sometimes I would ask questions like so how do I win a game, after I already realized that I have an advantage, because that seems kind of difficult to me.

Thalia: 40:09

Or, like you know, I got to this position and it looked really good, but I didn't know which route to take. And my coaches would always say things like, oh, you all just learned that with time. Or like, oh, I just got a little bit more experience. Or like, oh, I can't teach you that right now because it's too complicated, and I wanted to know. I'm very curious, I wanted to know and I feel like that could be the case for many others. So I want to make sure that, looking back at the little girl that I was, and I want to try and be the person that wasn't there for me at the time, and I want to be that for the people that are learning chess now. So I hope that yeah, I hope that I'm able to transfer that message with my course.

Daniel: 40:54

Yeah, well, that's a great story and great reasons for it. I didn't know it was going to be that awesome of an explanation. I just thought you were, like I've always liked attacking, but this is so much cooler than that. Even so, yeah, something you mentioned really caught my attention, which is that you know, he said like you included yourself in Normal People, which is well. First of all, that's interesting to me because you're so talented to me, but I know what you're saying.

Thalia: 41:20

I know you're kind of like putting yourself in a particular category.

Daniel: 41:22

It brings up a really great point, though, because when we're talking about like a chess intuition, whether it's for attacking or anything else just speaking as a club player and I imagine many others feel this way I mean, I'm only about 1600. I don't feel like I have an intuition for anything yet I feel like I'm still just trying to get a handle on basics in a way, but that's interesting to me.

Daniel: 41:42

So you feel like even people who are, like, say, in the range of 1600 to 2000, can still develop an intuition, though yeah, for sure.

Thalia: 41:51

It's just something that is there. You just kind of have to almost activate it or like listen to it, and it is true that there's a lot of experience that is important to develop this intuition. But a lot of times you can almost train it and try to realize the moments where this intuition is showing off Because, for example, if you play like a bullet game or something, most of the moves that you're making are from your intuition and, like in a split second, you're saying, oh, this move is good, this move is bad, and you're able to make decisions. So I believe yeah, I believe that it's very important to take a few different things into consideration, but something that I really like, also about the course and the way that I structured it, is that the first chapter is pattern recognition, which is something that we talk a lot about, a lot in chess, and being able to recognize the patterns that you're going to be seeing for a long time in chess really helps create almost like that mental catalog or like a portfolio of different positions, different ideas, but they are all combined through one specific detail, right. So being able to recognize all of those patterns and familiarizing yourself with them, with the ideas, positions where they work, positions where they don't. What happens if they do this? What happens if they do that? It's really important because it kind of sets the foundation for everything else that comes after. So I think, regardless of the level, it's really, really important to be able to recognize these patterns.

Thalia: 43:34

And going back to this of like me as a chess player compared to others, I I tried to put examples in the course, not just from me right now as a woman grandmaster, like a title player. I tried to put examples from a few years back, even when I didn't have these titles or I didn't play in these tournaments. So even you know, even in my own games because I, I have it, I have a data somehow I have been able to keep my, my database of chess games from all the way back to 2011. So even sometimes, when I'm bored and I go through through my games, I'm like, wow, I learned something at this specific time and then I learned something at that specific time. So, being able to like, notice those differences and those patterns and being able to put them in the course also, I hope that the people who study the course are able to also see that growth in themselves.

Daniel: 44:33

Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic. So you mentioned that the first chapter is on pattern recognition Fantastic, so you mentioned that. You know the first chapter is on pattern recognition and I know, when it comes to attacking, there's going to be a lot of tactics there and we're all familiar, I think, with you, know meaning all, as in club players are all familiar with the idea of tactical pattern recognition. But I'm assuming that what you're talking about goes even beyond just recognizing a simple or basic tactic, right, like you're talking about the positions that can lead to a great attack, right?

Thalia: 45:01

Yeah, so the first chapter is about pattern recognition and it's not just being able to understand. Oh, this is like checkmate pattern, so learn it and memorize it.

Thalia: 45:12

It's a little bit more than that and it provides a few different positions where sacrifice happens, but they're all still connected one way or another and something that I don't know if I should spoil the course or not Maybe I shouldn't, but something that I'm very proud throughout the entire course is that I'm always able to call back to an earlier moment or to a different position that we have already talked about that has a similar idea, and overall in the course, my goal is to create the sense of familiarity, right, like you have seen this before, same way that in your games you have been able to see certain ideas before, right before right.

Thalia: 46:02

So, especially with chapter one and chapter two chapter one being able to recognize patterns of a sacrifice idea. Chapter two shows you a lot of those examples because it has games from different world champions and many different styles of sacrifices. So the goal is that you're able to almost tell after reading chapter one, that you're almost able to tell like, oh, there's something coming up in this position. This is like a critical moment. I'm hoping that you're able to recognize that crucial moments in the game and that you start getting the hints of you know what moves you should go for, because it's a dynamic position. You should do something dynamic and from then on you can think about candidate moves and things like that. So it's almost like setting up the base for the rest of the course.

Daniel: 46:50

I see, I see, and I just want to clarify, because I think this will be helpful for people listening and from understanding your course, you know you even have a chapter called intuition versus concrete play. Yes, my understanding is that intuition would just be something automatic, like I don't think. My impression is that you wouldn't choose to say let me, let me ask my intuition yes, but it's just things just stand out to you through intuition. Is that right?

Thalia: 47:14

yes yes, okay there are going to be moves that just stand out to you in a position I could show you like a random, random game and like a move, will most likely jump up to to your mind, and that's the first thing that you're thinking about. So that's your intuition, and that's why we always talk about being able to train it, and over time it becomes more and more accurate and when it comes to concrete play, it requires a lot of very specific calculation where either the line, the line, either works or it doesn't, like there is no in between, and you're basically making all of your decisions with proof, with proof, and this proof is usually calculation. And and something that I call back in the course a lot of times is that calculation and intuition go hand in hand. Why? Because you need the intuition to guide you in those moments where you can't calculate, because you can't calculate forever, you're going to run out of energy, you're going to run out of time. It's not very practical, right? So, keeping that balance between accuracy and practicality and for that you need your intuition to guide you in certain moments provide an evaluation for the position that you're thinking about, and you need the calculation just to verify that everything is correct.

Thalia: 48:35

So, looking at examples in this second chapter, where we have players that are very intuitive, they love making the sacrifices, you know, just based on their understanding of the game, which is incredible because they're world champions. So you have people like Tal, who love doing the sacrifices Maybe he hasn't seen the end of the variation, but he trusts that it's going to work. And then you have people like Casparo, for example, who has a bunch of incredible games where he's able to calculate everything out. He's just a machine, basically, and he's able to calculate this very deep variations and basically it's almost showing you what's out there. And if a type of sacrifice or a type of play or even one specific player you know becomes memorable to you and to your style, it can work as a guide as well if you, if you want to if you want to keep learning about them in the future or that specific type of sacrificial style.

Thalia: 49:42

So it's almost trying to basically, yeah, just show you what's out there and try to see if you can familiarize yourself with one of the different types of sacrifices.

Daniel: 49:54

I see. So, yeah, a couple of things about that. First, I like the idea slash recommendation that you just had to find a player who's attacking style that you like or just a player you like and maybe look at their games where they go on the attack and win. I don't think I've heard that before. That can just be a great way to just develop attacking intuition. That's new to me. I like that. I like that a lot. And then also the games that you selected for your course. Did you choose them, at least in part, because they represent common attacking patterns?

Thalia: 50:29

Yes, I tried to choose games that, first of all, you know have some sort of familiarity already with players. I chose games from world champions. Most likely, if somebody is studying the course, they already know about previous world champions or maybe they have seen some of these famous games. But at the same time I don't know exactly how it happened, but when we got to the topic of building attacking intuition, okay, what does that mean? I already had like a few different games or positions in mind that I knew I wanted to showcase, and I think that connected with the fact that, as mentioned, I have been working as a chess instructor since 2019. As a chess instructor since 2019.

Thalia: 51:20

I already had a bunch of material in mind that I have been almost wanting to get out there for a while, and this course kind of brought that perfect opportunity.

Thalia: 51:29

And then, as I was trying to piece the chapters and outline my ideas, I realized, wow, so much of this connects and I think that's good.

Thalia: 51:39

I think that's a good sign that the course makes sense. So even now, even after releasing the course, I'm looking at some positions from games that I have had. I'm looking at some positions from games in top tournaments that I'm seeing every day games from friends that they sent to me and they're like oh, I played this game, I had this cool sacrifice. I start to like see a lot of resemblance in, or, you know, like a common idea in, a lot of these games and it's just very interesting how that works. Again, calling it back to pattern recognition and all that, I already have a few ideas. I don't know if I'm doing another course in the future, but I already have ideas in mind and it's just yeah, I think it's just something that is so practical for everybody, regardless of your level, to be able to look at a lot of these examples and try to not just learn them and learn the most, but to also implement them in your games afterwards.

Daniel: 52:47

Yeah, when I think of you know like a course on building attacking intuition or anything on attacking, I'm going to like knock this conventional wisdom down maybe a little bit so to support doing your course.

Daniel: 52:59

What I typically often hear is you know, like at club players, work on tactics. You know maybe a little bit on strategy, a little bit on openings, a little bit on end games, things like that, and it's rarely advocated to develop your attacking skills as like a bucket of something to work on regularly. But I kind of wish it was One because I just think, like you said, I think it's probably a majority of chess players who enjoy you know that attacking process and learning how to become better attackers. But also I wonder if maybe it's a little undervalued because it seems like there's a lot of instances where you're going to have to, you know, look for tactics. You know a lot of calculation, which are the things that we should be working on tactics and calculation. So it's just not really presented as such like, oh, do that through studying how to attack. But yeah, I'm just wondering if you would make the case for that for club players as something to at least semi-regularly work on?

Thalia: 53:50

Yes, for sure, and, as mentioned, it's something that is difficult to put into words or something that people think it just comes naturally. When I was younger, people were just telling me that I'll understand what intuition is with more experience in the future, and part of that is true. One of the big tips that I provide in the course is going back and analyzing your own games, but with a very specific focus into the critical moments, and try to remember how you made the decision in the game. Were you influenced by the amount of time that you had in the clock? Were you influenced because of some external elements? Did you choose a specific variation because you were scared of another? You know, try to like really understand what was going on during the game and try to learn from it in a deeper way. So those general tips I think are fantastic, especially for club players.

Thalia: 54:48

As mentioned, intuition and calculation go hand in hand. So working on tactics is very, very crucial, and not just that. Like beyond tactics is calculation, which is a little bit less obvious, I guess, because for tactics it's usually like forcing, moves, checks, captures and threats, but calculation almost goes a step beyond that, and even at the high level, it's not easy to make decisions at the board, right. So you just want to make sure that you have all of your equipment almost ready for when that specific moment comes. You can think of your intuition, as you know, like a tool or part of your equipment for when you're playing chess. So I just want to make sure that with the course, players are able to sharpen that and utilize it in games better.

Daniel: 55:39

You also hinted at the possibility of doing a second course, and this kind of brings us into the territory where I'd like to finish our discussion, which is future stuff for you. Now, I know you just finished a whole course, so you probably want a little breather, a little bit, a little bit, but that said, it would be exciting to do more, of course, for you and for the people interested in your work. Where are you right now with it? Do you think it would be like a volume two of this or something else?

Thalia: 56:03

I would love to do another course Also, because a lot of I have a bunch of friends who purchased the course or they're telling me about it and then they're telling me about how they try to implement these ideas for their games. And I'm looking at their games and I'm like, wow, this could make like wonderful examples for another course, if it happens in the future. As of right now, I don't have any specific plan, but one exciting thing is that this course that I have building your attacking intuition it's I'm working on making a Spanish translation. So, yes, it's going to be the same course, the same ideas, just I need to record the Spanish version.

Thalia: 56:49

And I feel like this is such a wonderful opportunity because, once again, I'm just able to connect more with the Hispanic side of chess, with my roots, my chess culture, and many friends and family that have been able to see me grow to. The player that I am today will be able to look at this course and understand what I'm saying and what I'm trying to explain. Maybe a lot of my old coaches are going to hear me speak and they're going to say, wow. Like you know, this is something that I used to say, because a lot of the knowledge that I have comes from other incredible players. So that's just a wonderful opportunity again being able to, you know, embrace my culture in a new way. So I'm really looking forward to translating the course, but that's kind of the only plan that I have for right now.

Daniel: 57:38

Continuing our discussion of, like what you're working on for the future. You're also working to earn the IM title.

Thalia: 57:44

Yes.

Daniel: 57:45

Yeah, can you just describe what goes into that goal for you right now?

Thalia: 57:50

Yes. So obviously it's not an easy task fighting for this IM title. For the most part in the last few years, I've been trying to find balance, as I was mentioning at the beginning of the interview, because I can have tournaments where I have an outstanding performance and then I can also have tournaments where it looks like I don't know how to play chess. So for the past few years, I've been trying to find this balance and kind of like this deeper understanding of how I am doing, how I am performing at this specific moment, and try to find consistency in the way that I have been able to improve my rating and my understanding of chess through the years. I got my first and only International Master Norm back in 2021.

Thalia: 58:37

I played this tournament, this norm tournament, in Mexico City, and it was a wonderful opportunity. I was honestly a little bit surprised with making that I am norm because I had never achieved something like that before. So it was very, very surprising. And over the years I have been close, I haven't gotten another norm, but I've had some really great performance in tournaments. But at the same time, it's really rigorous because you have two options Either you make a norm at an international open event where you know there are players from all over the world.

Thalia: 59:19

There are some very, very strong players and in general, when I go into a tournament, I prefer being the underdog, kind of, for having a lot of players to play against that are much higher rated. I just find it more fun, which, you know. It's nice, but at the same time it's very difficult, right? And then, on the other hand, you have closed norm events, which require a lot of preparation beforehand because, you know, since it's only a small group of players, you need to really do a lot of work with openings and see if something works specifically against a certain opponent, and it's just a very rigorous journey. But at the same time, I'm very happy that I have been able to like achieve some of these goals that that I'm mentioning and I'm still in my in my pursuit for for the I am title. I don't know if I'll be happy and with myself and like done with, done with with my ambitions after that. Probably not, but yeah for sure it's something that I'm looking forward to every year, trying to get closer to the IEM title.

Daniel: 1:00:26

Is that what most of your coaching is focused on, like I mean the coaching that you receive, rather working towards things that will help you bridge that gap to get the IEM title.

Thalia: 1:00:34

Yes, I think for the most part, though, the coaching that I'm receiving focuses on the specific tournament that I have ahead of me that moment in time, but as a whole, it really does a lot for my pursuit for the IM title, and every year there are just new things that I'm trying to improve, new things that I'm trying to perfect with my chess, so it all really adds up to improving my game as a whole.

Thalia: 1:01:06

For example, last year I think I ended 2023 with like decent yeah, all of 2023, I had like decent, decent performances, and then the last two tournaments of the year dropped my rating quite a lot. So I started 2024 with 2184 FIDE and I finished 2024 with 2318. I want to say so it's also about finding that balance, because it's not good to, in my opinion I don't know, I don't enjoy it when I have like really great performances but also really bad performances. So it's about finding that balance. I'm happy with how my 2024 went because of that and it was just consistent growth, and I have to thank my coaches a lot for that, because they are able to put up with me. Basically, so, yeah, ittime job at the St Louis Chess Club, my undergrad studies at St Louis.

Thalia: 1:02:22

University, these tournaments that can either be in St Louis or on the other side of the world, my family, everything.

Daniel: 1:02:29

So it's all about trying to find that balance, for me yeah, absolutely Well, and that also serves as a great segue to my last question for you about all of this. You're doing a bachelor's program in your last year of it, yes. So two questions for you on that. One is just so people know what's your degree in. And then, how do you see chess fitting into your life after you graduate?

Thalia: 1:02:53

Yeah, so I am in the St Louis University Scheifert School of Business and I'm doing a career in sports business and I'm hoping that in the future I can use all of my knowledge and leadership management to bring them into chess one way or another.

Thalia: 1:03:13

I already have, as mentioned, like a few different projects with chess part-time jobs or working on courses or giving lectures and things like that but maybe in some future I can have my own organization or I can be part of a different organization, and if one day I finally have the peace and quiet to do this, I would love to have some sort of organization that promotes chess throughout Latin America and especially Cuba.

Thalia: 1:03:43

I feel like chess is underappreciated in these countries and a lot of times the very talented players are not able to get the resources that they need to continue with their chess career. So if I'm able to spread the beauty of chess through Latin America, I think it would be wonderful and, at least to me, it would be super, super meaningful. So I think that having a degree in sports business and having also that general understanding of business as a whole and all of the skills that it provides, it's just something that can help me out in life, for for a bunch of, in a bunch of different fields. So I'm hoping that I can have my own yeah, my own organizations in the future or my own projects involving revolving around chess, but also for life in general. I think it's important, important to have a lot of these skills.

Daniel: 1:04:44

Yeah, that's all great work and stuff that you have planned for the future. I love it. I love hearing all that you're planning to do in the coming years for yourself. It's all very exciting and, yeah, I'll definitely enjoy watching your career unfold, talia, everything you've done so far is already inspiring, so I'm sure it'll continue to be. That's like the main part of of our interview, and then, with my guests, I always close with a series of fun, faster, rapid questions just to finish our discussion. My first question for you in this segment yes, knights or bishops?

Daniel: 1:05:12

oh, bishops nice, what's your favorite time control?

Thalia: 1:05:18

I prefer longer time controls. Actually, I played in BO in July of last year and the time control was two hours for 40 moves, then an extra 15 minutes, then an extra 15 minutes, a move 60. And that was insane. My longest game was eight hours, but it was so much fun. I love that. So I think that's my favorite time control that you haven't heard that one before.

Daniel: 1:05:49

No wait, was there an increment in that somewhere?

Thalia: 1:05:51

Yes, like 30 second increment from move one.

Daniel: 1:05:53

Okay, yeah, okay, very important yeah, but yeah long time control. Yeah, eight hours is probably, as an average, a little longer than my preference, but I do love the classical games. What's your favorite opening to play as white?

Thalia: 1:06:08

Oh, I think it's the four pawns against the king's Indian. I just think it's so fun.

Daniel: 1:06:13

What's your favorite opening to play as black?

Thalia: 1:06:15

The Neidorf Any line. Basically, I just love the Neidorf.

Daniel: 1:06:19

Nice. In one word, how would you describe your playing style?

Thalia: 1:06:24

Universal. I guess I just try to follow what's going on with the position, try to go with the flow. Yes, Maybe that's why I like Spassky so much too.

Daniel: 1:06:36

What's one book you wish more chess players would read?

Thalia: 1:06:40

one book that I think helped me a lot was think like a super gm by michael adams, and yeah, I read it last year.

Daniel: 1:06:48

I think it was amazing, so highly recommend we already addressed this, but I will ask it anyway, because it's part of the segment. Who is your favorite player of all time?

Thalia: 1:06:57

bo Bobby Fischer for sure.

Daniel: 1:07:00

If you could play any great player of the past who is no longer alive, who would it be?

Thalia: 1:07:06

Okay, so Bobby Fischer is like up there, but I think it would be more meaningful to play Capablanca, just because, again, you know Cuban legend and I just, I don't know. I would love to have a conversation with him if possible. Well, it's not possible, but I mean, I would love that it's given the chance.

Daniel: 1:07:27

It's given the chance. Yeah, If you could play any of the top players in the world right now, who would it be?

Thalia: 1:07:32

It would be Magnus Carlsen.

Daniel: 1:07:34

And then my final question for you if a chess genie existed and could grant you one chess wish what would you wish for?

Thalia: 1:07:42

I'm always so, so cautious with this genie questions, because what if? What if I use the wrong wording and it punishes me for being greedy or something? So this genie?

Daniel: 1:07:54

questions.

Thalia: 1:07:55

It's a benevolent chess genie, I would say I don't know. It's difficult because you know you have two sides. You can just ask for a title, or you can ask for something a little bit more vague. Let's see.

Daniel: 1:08:15

Can I give you a little insight here? Yeah, Can I give you a little insight here? Yeah, so, because I try to make the questions brief but at the same time it doesn't have to be like granting you skill it could be anything in chess.

Thalia: 1:08:29

I see, I think you know what I would want a genie to grant me this wish of playing somebody who, who is no longer alive, like. If I could, I I would make the genie, make me play against capablanca, if possible.

Daniel: 1:08:47

Nice, I love that, that's the first time I've had a guest loop it back to a previous answer.

Daniel: 1:08:51

That's great, I love it perfect answer well, talia, it was fantastic talking with you. I really, really, really enjoyed it. You're doing such great things in chess. I mean, yeah, from just yourself as a player to you know now, putting out courses and wanting to spread chess to other areas of the world that maybe don't receive it as much as we'd like to see. All of that just absolutely fantastic, and I'm so excited for everything that you'll do in the future. I'm confident that I Am. Title is just a matter of time for you, thank you.

Daniel: 1:09:21

And yeah, and it was just an honor, a real honor, to have you on the show. Thank you.

Thalia: 1:09:25

Yes, thank you so much for having me here today.

Daniel: 1:09:30

Thanks for listening. This has been a production of my business, adult Chess Academy, and that has a website with the same name. If you want to look for it, you can also find me being way too active on twitter by searching my username, lona underscore chess see you next week.