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The Chess Experience
The Chess Experience
GM Boris Avrukh: How to Play Better Defense, Coaching Fabi, & Playing Against Tal
116 What a chess career! GM Boris Avrukh cracked the World Top 50 in 2005 and achieved a peak rating of 2668. He has coached the world’s best players like Fabiano Caruana, Vladimir Kramnik, and Wesley So. And he even got to be the last person to ever play the legendary Mikhail Tal.
Of course, Boris has had an exemplary competitive career representing Israel in six chess Olympiads and winning the World U12 Championship in 1990.
In addition to years of coaching the world’s best and club players alike, Boris has also written countless opening books and published five Chessable courses.
Boris and I talk at length about his course called “Resourceful Chess: Defense & Counterplay,” which will give you some excellent advice on how to play better defense.
We also discuss:
- Why it’s important to recognize key defensive patterns.
- His experience coaching Fabiano Caruana.
- Why Boris choose to highlight Hans Niemann for defensive play in his course (and whether he did so knowing he’d be controversial.)
More From GM Boris Avrukh
Daniel's Twitter account to follow for the giveaway.
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Hey, welcome to the chess experience On this show. It's all about helping adult improvers. I want to make learning chess easier for you to navigate and I also want you to have a more fun experience along the way. I'm your host, daniel Lona, a fellow chess amateur. Let's get to it.
Daniel:This show is sponsored by chesscom, the world's largest chess community. Chesscom recently launched a new way to learn from your games with a feature called insights. If you visit chesscom slash insights, you can get detailed stats and analysis in any of the time controls you've played and across any time period. What kind of things can you learn? Well, you can learn. What time of day do you play your best morning, afternoon or night? What part of the game are you strongest or weakest? Opening, middle game or end game? Are you making more or less mistakes than opponents at your level? You can find out all this great info and much more at chesscom slash insights. Welcome to this week's episode.
Daniel:Today's guest has had an incredible career as a competitor and an instructor Grandmaster Boris Avruk. Boris was born and raised in Kazakhstan. Later he moved to Israel and for some years now he has lived in the United States. In 2005, boris had a world ranking of 50, an extraordinary feat, and it makes him one of the most accomplished players to be on this show. He's had a peak rating of 2668. As for some of his competitive achievements, boris was the world under 12 champion in 1990. He's represented Israel in the Chess Olympiad six times, champion in 1990. He's represented Israel in the chess Olympiad six times. And Boris has coached incredible players like Fabiano Caruana, vladimir Kramnik, boris Gelfand and Wesley. So Not only that, but Boris has had a prolific career as a chess instructor. He's published many opening books his specialty and he's published five chessable courses.
Daniel:On that point, in this episode, boris and I talk at length about his course called Resourceful Chess Defense and Counterplay. Our discussion will give you some excellent advice on how to play better defense. I'll also be doing a giveaway of that course this week on Twitter. Just follow my Twitter account, lona, underscore chess for updates on that. There's also a link in the's. Great to have you here. How are you today?
Boris:Hello Daniel, I'm doing great and thanks for having me. It's great to have you here. How are you today, Hello Daniel, I'm doing great and thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
Daniel:Yeah, pleasure is all mine. It's a real honor to have you on the show. You have had such an impressive competitive career and career as an educator for chess students, so I'm excited to talk about both aspects of your chess life, yeah, so thank you very much for being here.
Boris:Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me Looking forward to our conversation.
Daniel:Yeah, I'll just start with a little easy question here. What has been your week like this week in chess? Are you working on a new publication of some kind, or just your own practice, or anything like that?
Boris:Well, as always, I call it a routine a lot of private lessons, and I'm trying to squeeze time to maybe having some material published on my personal page and YouTube channel, and I hope we will get to this as well. And yeah that's more or less my regular week working on chess, but you know, sometimes maybe there are some big projects, but not right now.
Daniel:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We'll definitely talk about your site later in the interview, for sure. So, yeah, I just want to start with the beginning of your own chess life and journey. For people who don't know, you were born in Kazakhstan and lived there most of your life before age 18. You lived there most of your life before 18. Did you grow up in a chess family and, if so, is that what got you into the game?
Boris:Well, it's possible to say this my father was actually a candidate master, which is kind of a pretty advanced title, I would say. He has even a very decent feeder rating 2260, but he's inactive for many years. And the story how I came to chess I grew up in Kazakhstan, I was born in Kazakhstan, but every summer we were traveling to my father's grandparents, to Ukraine, to be precise, east Ukraine, and while I was playing on the yard of our house well, we actually lived in an apartment building in the city center and you know, I was playing with friends soccer, basketball, something like that and there was always some company group of people involving my grandpa who played chess on the backyard. So while I was playing all these games, I was kind of like stopping by and checking chess game and nobody knew that. Well, I didn't know how to play chess, but slowly I started to understand this and at some point I came and suggested the move and my grandpa was very surprised. He was very surprised. He said, wow, like you suggested the move, I didn't know even that you play chess, so you know the rules. And he immediately took me to my father and said well, you know, somehow it's happened.
Boris:I think I was seven years old or maybe six years old, and this is when it started, but you know, it was a culture like you mentioned Kazakhstan and Ukraine. It all basically was part of Soviet Union until 1992. Right, 92, right. So, and um, in the family my my dad was candidate master, as I mentioned uh, I think grandpa had like maybe second category, so we had these categories, you know. And uh, well, also, grandma, grandma knew how to play chess and uh, my aunt had like third category, something it was kind of like inside the culture, right within the culture, in so, so, like most of the people knew how to play chess. And then it started. I came back to Kazakhstan, they sent me to the special sports section or chess section, and it started to unravel like slowly, you know.
Daniel:Was chess part of the school curriculum in your schools? No, no, okay so how did? You like start practicing regularly. Was that just in your schools? No, no, okay. So how did you start practicing regularly? Was that just on your own? You said you were part of a club, though you said Well, they sent me.
Boris:You know, you had all the sections for every sport as well as chess, art and so on, and so they sent me to chess section. But at the same time my dad was a candidate master and we had a big chess library. So we started to work with my dad basically every day and well, probably I was talented, you know, and it's kind of like worked out pretty well. You know, I was getting all these like categories. You know it was starting with fourth category and then I quickly progressed to, maybe, candidate master and it was mainly my father. So that's this. This is where, like, most of the work had been done, like once he was coming back from his work, I mean, we were sitting and spending two, three hours, whether it's, you know, any training, chess games of top players, basically covering all the books, and yeah, that's how it's worked. And you know, I changed some coaches, but the main coach is my dad. So that's how it worked with me.
Daniel:Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, you said you started getting into the game around age seven. Yeah, but basically four years later you win the World Under 12 Championship in 1990. That's a huge success. What do you attribute to that? Because that's a short amount of time to go from just getting into the game to winning something like that. What do you attribute to that success?
Boris:Well, you know, in the beginning it's probably I had some talent, definitely, and I work hard, so with my dad, like every day, I was going to the section, I think twice a week and I work myself also. So like I was probably hard-working kid and yeah, somehow, somehow the progress was like pretty smooth. And you know, I just wanted to mention I obviously qualified from Kazakhstan. It was not so difficult, but then I played soviet union championship under 12. So this is where it was an amazing competition. Uh, actually way, way stronger than world championship itself, because if I check now, uh, the players I played against and and basically, uh, just the field of the tournament, it's they're all grandmas. Many of them maybe crossed 2700.
Boris:Even so, that was a kind of like massive amount of talent there. And you know, for example, I shared first place with Sergei Movsasan, who at some point reached 2747 rating, I think was maybe top five in the world. I think it's around 2000 or something like this. So that was the first game that I won in this tournament and I remember how everyone like passed by and asked for results and everyone was shocked that he lost because he was already a superstar. Yes, and then it was my first trip abroad to USA yeah, that was remarkable Currently 90 minutes from my house. Yeah, that was remarkable Currently 90 minutes from my house.
Daniel:You're right. Yeah, you mentioned that. It's funny how things work out that way. Were you competing a lot prior to that event? Prior to that, you know, World Under 12 championship, Were you?
Boris:competing a lot in Kazakhstan. I think a decent amount of competition. It was not like nowadays that you can play every weekend. So mostly there were tournaments of 9-11 rounds. So you know, like normal schedule, maybe two tournaments a month or something like that.
Daniel:Yeah, and then another highlight of your chess journey at this, roughly at that time for you, about two years later, after that championship that we referenced that you won. About two years later, after that championship that we referenced that you won, you mentioned to me that you had the remarkable experience where you got to be the last person to ever play against the great Mikhail Tal. Can you talk about how that happened?
Boris:Yes, it was an amazing memory for me. We had one person who was we call him some kind of sponsor in Moscow. So I was spending a lot of time in Moscow back then where chess was obviously very popular and there were some pop coaches. I was also attending a chess school probably many people familiar with the Botvinnik chess school, where Kramnik and Kasparov basically attended. But maybe second best school was Petrosyan school with the main coach, aleksandr Nikitin, who was Kasparov coach basically, so his major coach, I would say, who took him from maybe candidate master level and all the way to the title, world championship title. So he was the main coach, very, very strict coach, and it was a great experience and most of the sessions is like four times a year, maybe it was around Moscow, maybe suburbs, and well, at some point I got to know some people. So there was a sponsor, uh, kind of like, arranged some tournaments that I could participate in moscow and at some point I qualified. There was a very, very big tournament where I qualified to so-called pre-olympic blitz, uh, and I remember I, I, I got first junior first place and there was morozevich, for instance, that somehow I was half point ahead of him and I got to play against a Russian national team. So this is the year where actually, soviet Union separated into 15 countries, you know. So that was the last year of Soviet Union and there was a Russian team which was supposed to go to Olympiad 1992, I think, in Philippines, manila and so I got into this tournament.
Boris:Russian team which was supposed to go to Olympia in 1992, I think, in the Philippines, manila, and so I got into this tournament. So there was one qualification place for junior. So I played in this tournament. It's eight chess players, including Kasparov, tal, smyslov and then some, you know, normal super grandmaster like Belovsky Barev. So I actually drew against Kasparov during winning position and Tal was playing there and actually there was a final Tal against Kasparov. Kasparov won, but still Tal came second in this tournament. It was impressive, I lost both games. So it was double round, double round Robin. Yeah, so I lost to Tal, I was crushed in both games. So it was double round, double round Robin. Yes, so I lost to Tal, I was crushed in both games.
Boris:And well, I was supposed to go back to Kazakhstan from Moscow to fly, and then suddenly the same person came to me who I mentioned was like a sponsor. So he well, you know, we organized your match with Tal, so there is a possibility. And well, we have the tickets and in one week I should fly to World Youth Championship under-14. He said well, no worries, we'll, you know, we'll change the tickets. So I went to the hospital where Tal was located.
Boris:Even during this tournament. He was already not in great shape. I have some photo like that I sent to you. He was already not in great shape. I have some photo that I sent to you. He was looking not so good.
Boris:Yeah, and yeah, we played a match of I think how many games it was Maybe 13 games. I even won 8-5. But he was definitely not playing his 100%. He was very relaxed. He was smoking one cigarette after another I don't know how many cigarettes it was during the match. There were some people around, so he was chatting with them and then once he was very long time and it's not digital clocks, right so he started to speed up. The problem was that I was young and very quick as well, so this is where maybe I even had advantage, so somehow I won 8-5. But it's more about experience, not the score. I even had some games like I restored some games. So it was a lot of fun. And then, after we finished the match, he asked me what's your future plans? And I told him well, I'm planning to go to World Youth Championship in Germany in one week.
Boris:He said well, you know, I'll have some events also in the city and I'll stop by and chat with you, and I was extremely excited you know he was in celebrity status, of course, back then in Russia, and I was looking forward to it, and I remember the very first day when I landed in Germany there were news that Tal died.
Daniel:Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's an incredible experience that you got to have with him. That's a great story. It's an extraordinary memory. There you mentioned that you had the chance to restore some of those games. Does that mean you remembered some of them?
Boris:Yes, I have some notes somewhere, notes in my office, so I was able at least some opening moves and maybe until move 20 or something like that.
Daniel:Yes, I have some of them. Yeah, have you shared that?
Boris:anywhere publicly. Well, you know, not really. That's a good question. I never shared them. Maybe I thought it's not fair because he didn't play full strength.
Daniel:Yeah.
Boris:Smoking cigarette, one after another. But yeah, there's something to consider.
Daniel:Right, right. Well, later in your career, in 1995, you moved to Israel and from what I could tell about what's listed online of your competitive career, it seems you competed professionally from the late 90s through the 2000s. That was maybe a peak period for you and in that time for people who don't know you twice won the Israeli chess championship Correct Once in 2000, the other time in 2008. You represented Israel six times in the chess Olympiad during this period. So yeah, that's a lot of accomplishments. How would you describe that period of your competitive life, say from the late 90s through the 2000s, because it seems like you were very active competitively then, yeah, that was exactly.
Boris:well, that was the time when I was really a professional player. Well, that was the time when I was really a professional player. So, first of all, I moved to Israel thanks to the CEO of chess club in the south part of Israel, bershago it's called, actually, you know interesting fact, if you check well, the city which has most of the grandmasters compared to population, I think it's number one. Some sources give it's number one city and some sources give the capital of Iceland, reykjavik, the number one. But it was the best chess club Back then they said best chess club in Europe, obviously best club in Israel.
Boris:And so I got to know my coach. So he actually connected me to this club and the guy called us and well invited. So I felt it's a good idea to continue a professional career like to, well, at least to push for professional chess career, because in Kazakhstan back then it was a little bit problematic, although I have to admit nowadays it's probably one of the best chess federation that I have some collaboration with them, working with some students are absolutely amazing and they have a great success, like female national team got second place and it's growing and growing. So but back then it was not the same and we thought that's a great opportunity. And well, you know, I got to the city and I remember in two days I already played for the club team in the israeli league. So you know, every country, basically in europe, they have leagues. I I still like baffled why we don't have in the us, with all the resources and money in us, and we don't have a leagues right where players can play yes and uh well played for the team and I.
Boris:I got one coach assigned to me and there was a budget that I could travel, so that's all what I needed. And so I worked hard, got opportunity to travel to European tournaments and, yes, it's worked well and very soon I started to play for the national team. And you mentioned six Olympiads, but it's not only Olympiads, there were also. It's one year there is Olympiad and another year European team championship, and in the middle sometimes we have world team championship when you qualify like some top six teams. So there is a special system and once it was actually in the city in Israel, in the city where I lived, in Be'er Sheva. Once it was actually in the city in israel, in the city where I lived, in besheva.
Boris:Once it was a world championship and well, obviously, great memories. Uh, we got a second place in 2008, second place in olympiad. Uh, after armenia and I, I think we got maybe two second places in the european team championship, which is also was very strong, obviously, with all the top teams, and I think only in Olympiads I got, I think, three individual medals, with the most memorable one probably from the very first Olympiad, of course, in Russia Lista, where I got first place, it's called second reserve. Fantastic memories from this period, obviously, and a lot of success in these team competitions. Unfortunately, nowadays it's not any more chess power.
Daniel:Israel, unfortunately.
Boris:But back then we always fought for the medals.
Daniel:Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, it's an amazing time period there for you, with all that you accomplished During your career. You've also coached several chess greats, including Caruana, kramnik, and even helping Gelfand against Anand in the World Championship match. All of it's just so amazing just to say that out loud, and we could probably spend an entire episode talking about your experiences with these amazing players. For now, just talk about one. Let's talk about Fabiano Caruana. How did your experience with him begin?
Boris:How did your experience with him begin? Well, I think I was connected by a referral from Boris Gelfand, who had good connections with a Fabiano coach back then. That was a Russian grandmaster who lived in Hungary Chernin, I don't remember his name, I think Alexander Chernin and he connected me. Well, there was a referral. We had a conversation, I remember, during one of the team events european championship and we agreed to work. So the point was that fabiano was back then living in hungary, in the capital, budapest, and I was living in israel, so there was not such a big distance. So I was coming to training sessions with him. What year was was this? It was, I think it started 2009. Okay, and finished 2011, maybe the beginning of 2011.
Boris:And so I was traveling to Budapest, I think two, three times. Then, suddenly, at some point, we had agreement to have a training session. We communicated, but then he told me well, his dad actually was communicating with me and he told well, this time please come to Switzerland. So he moved to Switzerland and all those years he was playing. He had Italian federation, chess federation. He was playing for a national team of Italy and when he moved to Switzerland it actually appeared to be very close to the Italy, so that was Italian part of it, of Switzerland, so we had a few sessions also in Switzerland and also maybe the most memorable experience that I was his coach during his summer tournaments.
Boris:So there were two major tournaments, one in, uh, bill bill bien, so that's a traditional tournament in switzerland that I personally played there 12 times, and another one in amsterdam, uh, and that was, uh, the last tournament. What they call is generation tournament where, like, young talented players played against experience, and I'm just thinking about young talented players. Back then it was Wesley Sof, fabiano Carano, hikaru Nakamura and David Howell, so nowadays would be probably something like 27-50 average rating, and they played against Gelfand Svidler, peter Heine-Nielsen and, I think, van Velje, local grandmaster. So that was a nice experience in the Amsterdam center, like an amazing organization, and it was the very last event of this tournament, generation tournament.
Daniel:I see I'm kind of curious where Fabi was at that point in his chess career, because obviously he had more growth still yet to come from 2009 onward. Do you remember where he was world ranking or something like that? Around that time when you started working with him, he was something within the range 2550 to 2600. Okay, Okay, I see yeah, and what did you work on with him? I mean, were there specific areas that you spent more time on with him?
Boris:Yes, Obviously, like all this work with top guys, it's usually dedicated to openings. Okay so, but openings it means also middle game, transition to middle game. Obviously, during the tournaments when I travel with him, it's opening preparation. So that's the main focus. All the rest they can do easily by themselves and it's not a problem, but they need somebody, and back then it was what is important to understand. The computers were not so strong so you still could have some kind of like human approach and sometimes computer changes evaluation, and it was very interesting to work back then. I mean, nowadays it's also, but it's a different story.
Boris:With such a powerful computers yeah.
Daniel:Right? Yeah, I'm wondering about that. Does the increased ability and power of engines these days does that? I mean the way you worked with him in 2009,? Do players at that level today still require opening coaches in the same way now, given the strength of engines?
Boris:Oh, absolutely yes, they do have. For instance, I probably forgot to mention, but since 2016, I think, I have been working as a coach with the England national team during all these big events Olympiad and European team championship and so, yeah, they still. There is some room and it's just so much information. You cannot, there is no way that alone you can cover all the theoretical developments. And you know you also have some kind of like human factor where you prepare some surprises, maybe objectively, not the first line of computer, but uh something that from practical point of view, it's very hard to react, very hard to defend, uh, some novelties, tricky ideas. So that that's what mostly nowadays is happening preparing some uh tricky line for one game. I see, I see.
Daniel:Yeah, that makes sense. Yes, yeah, that's incredible, and, like I said, you know, if we had a multiple hours long interview, I would talk about all the other people that you've helped coach along the way too, because it's incredible. For now I'd like to shift to discussing both the topic of defense, as well as giving some insights into your course on that subject, that two-part course that you created for Chessable, because I think the subject isn't talked about a lot, or at least not maybe enough for club players, and I think it's, you know, there's a great value to them. For those who don't know, you have this incredible two-part course on Chessable called Resourceful Chess Defense and Counterplay. Let me start broadly. What made you choose that subject to teach?
Boris:So, first of all, that was the topic that I was in some way passionate about, because I noticed with my private students that there is always a struggle. You know, everyone likes to attack, everyone likes to play with initiative, and suddenly you need to defend and somehow the level drops. The level drops significantly because I guess, like you know, they are not in the mood already to play. You know, it's not that exciting when you are not attacking or you don't have initiative, and this is one, and it's also very important from marketing point of view. You know, it's not so easy to find topic for Chessable. I have six courses, but at some point, when I started to offer my ideas, well, the answer was well, we already have three courses on this, we already have four courses on this. So basically, openings were pretty much.
Boris:It was very hard to find something, let's say, in the opening field like kind of like my specialty in some sense, and so I had this middle game topics and before that well, not exactly middle game I had this Russian in-game technique course and some grandmaster thinking, overall thinking, and then that was an idea, because you know, it's with me, with my coaching thoughts. It's always there is something, some topic that I start to be obsessed with, like every month something happening, for example. Now I just realized it's a great topic construction transformation. That may be not covered too much and I'm thinking a lot and always emphasize this during my private lessons. So back then it was defense and so I suggested this because, well, working with my students, I prepared some material already. So some material was ready and I suggested and they accepted so and it was great.
Daniel:Yeah yeah, that's a fantastic topic. Most of my audience are adult club players, but there's still a large range of skill within that group, so when would you say rating wise? It makes sense to start thinking about defense and counterplay as something to work on.
Boris:Well, in my video when I have presentation on Chessable, I noticed I'm talking about 1600 plus rating. It's always very confusing nowadays because, well, sometimes you have players. Maybe they might not understand everything, but they still strive to become a strong player, so it might work for them as well. But I would say, objectively speaking, maybe it's 1600 plus. But yeah, the examples are pretty advanced of course, in this course. But the most important is I always say whatever I show it's even mentioned to my students whatever I show, we have a discussion and we discuss the moves. It's the way of thinking, just kind of like to develop some proper way of thinking, kind of like find the patterns, how it works and so on. So that probably would be my answer.
Daniel:Yeah, and you bring up a point that I wanted to dive into a little further, which is the subject of patterns. So, yeah, that's something I didn't expect to see, necessarily when looking through your course on defense, which is that there are defensive patterns to be familiar with. You know, I think a lot of the time we associate that with the idea of patterns, with tactics, checkmates, things like that. Yes, so can you talk about the importance of recognizing patterns for defense?
Boris:Yeah, well, I'm a big believer of patterns recognition. By the way, there is a great series of middle game books where they talk I think it's called improve your pattern recognition. I think there are two volumes, and they just talk about middle game and positional ideas in the middle game. So, for example, yeah, and you're absolutely right, daniel, so that people usually associate with this with tactics, but I believe in the opening. So well, I always tell my students well, you have opening and, for instance, I share some file and it's pretty advanced and it's basically impossible to memorize. So try to memorize some patterns. What are the ideas, how we deal with this bone structure, where the pieces belong to. So, and then, even in case you don't remember exactly the line 20 moves, you still should be okay because you know how to develop and you have in your brain, like you know, some kind of like pattern recognition. So the queen should go here. So the same. And I just realized you know you would be surprised even that was actually approach of Dvoretsky, a famous coach from Soviet Union that I was, you know, blessed also to work with him a little bit, and he mentioned in his books, he's mentioning that there are even patterns for calculation, you know. So basically everywhere, pawn structure opening, so not only tactics, middle game, so I'm a big believer of this concept in chess. So pattern recognition everywhere.
Boris:And so talking about defensive patterns, right, so one of them, let's say to muddy the waters. Right, let's say you are losing. You see the game goes like really badly for you, so you are losing. You see the game goes like really badly for you, so you change the character of the game, you sacrifice, you create imbalance. Let's say you sacrifice queen for two pieces and two pawns, or one piece and rook, and once you create this imbalance, it for your opponent it's a little bit uncomfortable because everyone would be like much more comfortable just to convert extra pawn with equal material, with normal balance. Just everything is well known. So that's one of the things, so like a fortress or pawn sacrifice in order to maybe achieve some theoretical drawish endgames like opposite color bishops or rook endgames, or at least to have chances to get them. So that's a few examples.
Daniel:Yeah, no, that's fantastic. Also, in your course, you have a method for deciding whether to accept or decline a sacrifice through a process of elimination, and that was really fascinating to me. I hadn't heard that before. Of course, I'm at the club level as a player, so you know there's still a lot I'm not familiar with, but it's just not one of those things I've seen discussed before. So can you talk about that, the process of elimination for determining whether to accept a sacrifice?
Boris:well, I I think it's a relates to precise calculation. Well, first of all, don't trust your opponent always, even if he's much higher rated. So, number one you calculate, uh, maybe he's bluffing, and uh, and of course, as you mentioned, I think, the priority always for active play. So that's something that requires, like the opponent to be precise.
Daniel:I see, I see. So one of the key factors then would be how active can you be? Yeah, and how?
Boris:challenging the position will be for your opponent right. So not and not to take it for granted that he's well, he sacrificed. That means he knows something and he checked everything and always trying to push maybe to find mistakes in his calculation what he's planning to and maybe there are some holes in his calculation. Yeah, it's also elimination. It's one of the calculation patterns. So sometimes, and it maybe comes together with the comparison, it maybe intersects with comparison. So you know, you compare a few lines. Okay, here I don't accept, I'm pawned down. Here I have lost position two pawns down and here maybe it's double H. Maybe it's dangerous for me, but at least it's for three results. So probably it will be worth to accept the third option.
Daniel:And then one of my favorite topics that you have is on the subject of choosing a pawn sacrifice as a defensive play. I love that idea and again, you know it's just something I don't see as much. So can you talk about why a player would want to sack a pawn for the purpose of defense?
Boris:want to sack upon for the purpose of defense. Yeah well, this is like the minimum sacrifice that you can do, maybe to change the character of the game. So, as far as I remember, there are basically two options. One is when you try to get active counterplay, so basically also changing the character of the game you're defending. And so here you have counterplay and it's already not as comfortable for your opponent to just to push forward with it with a very comfortable advantage. So we go for counterplay.
Boris:And now a very important second idea as I mentioned before, you sacrifice the pawn with the idea to get some drawish endgames, whether it's opposite color, bishops, rook endgames, maybe in some cases queen endgames and fortress. Of course fortresses like that's also an option, but fortresses might involve maybe bigger sacrifices than the pawn, yeah, but nowadays you can see pawn sacrifice in so many games for initiative. And, by the way, there is one book that crossed my mind by excellent book that I recommend to most of my students. It's called Beyond the Material by Croatian Grandmaster Kolashevich, and I remember in the foreword for the book one of the first sentences. He mentions that when he got to his club and his pretty advanced coach, the coach said if you don't know how to sacrifice the pawn, you are not a good chess player. Yeah, so it's very interesting.
Daniel:I guess it kind of relates maybe to Russian chess schools or Croatian. It's pretty close, I guess. Yeah, there's one other question I want to ask you about the subject of defense. Um, I didn't have this written down, but I think it's an important one, which is, um, uh, the mental side of it, because I think that and I would say this, is that it can speak to club players. Anyway, it's true for club players that, uh, in situations where you go down material or the position's bad for you, I think mentally a lot of players can get pretty stressed, they can lose their confidence in those situations.
Daniel:But I think, in my opinion, that your course and what it teaches is at least a partial cure for that, at least the mental side of it, because if you have some tools in your toolbox to know how to handle those situations, I don't think you're going to let stress and lack of confidence affect you as much, because you know you have some ideas to work with versus none. So I don't know if you want to speak to that at all. Have you found that helpful for your students once they have some ideas on how to play defense?
Boris:No, absolutely Absolutely, and it's exactly what you mentioned. And, as I mentioned, the level drops significantly for many players, especially I would say for the level before title players, before national masters, so where it's like they're really disappointed how the game goes. And unfortunately, in chess we probably get a big part of our games. We get worse positions, what to do, especially maybe with black, and you just have to control this and not to go down very easily. And well, especially I noticed this when I remember I was 2,600 and started to get 2,700 players and how to beat them. I just, at some point I was well, I don't understand how to beat them. I get advantage, I get the same advantage in the openings, maybe like against the normal grandmasters, and then they just start defending so well that it's very hard to beat them.
Boris:Yeah, and like you know the mental part, so like I have one of the chapters which named never resign, so never relax, uh, never relax, you know, fight until all the resources are exhausted and uh, you know, on the other side of this there are so many players that they have, uh, problems converting very big advantage. You know, sometimes I have students and maybe parents introduce and they say, well, the biggest problem with my son is that he's not winning, like not converting winning positions, and you know, there is this famous phrase by Parash or Reti that that's the most difficult part of chess game. And, by the way, one small trick I remember that I used quite successfully during my chess career when I felt that like really, the position goes down and he outplays me very confidently and it's like not much to do I I was on purpose was going down on time. Uh, now that that's probably applies only if you have increment time control, because with delay it's probably not such a good idea. By the way, I don't know why we still have delay in the US.
Daniel:Me neither.
Boris:No other countries playing with delay. So when you have increment, so you go down on time and then the person has this massive advantage and quite often they like relax, they start to play some careless because they believe, well, you know, maybe I haven't calculated this till the end, but he has no time to figure out it either. So let's try this and this is where you can maybe trick them. But, by the way, if I can one story, you were talking about some memorable cases from my chess career In 2010,.
Boris:I was playing a very big Open in Switzerland and in Zurich it was 300 years to some chess club, local chess club, and they invited a lot of grandmasters. And I'm playing last round against Morozevich, so the same person I played in Olympia that I mentioned the story and somehow it's happened that out of five games against Morozevich and it's during his best years, practically I had a plus two score with three draws. I don't know why it's happened, but I was really very uncomfortable for him for some reason, and so I play this game and it's the last round. So all money we are playing for all the money, basically, and win gets at least you share first place in this tournament and he's absolutely crushing me, absolutely crushing me and I think, since he had such a bad score against me, so he really wanted to beat me. But it's also last round, of course, and he has 50 minutes.
Boris:I'm down to seconds and I see, well, at some point I saw like maybe three times in a row that I would just resign. I saw the move for him that I would just resign and I even don't have time to think. I'm literally down to last seconds. It's a lot of pieces and he's mating and somehow he's missing everything and somehow I survived until move 40. And back then we had extra 30 minutes. I even couldn't realize what happened in the game. I remember we went over 40 moves and I just I get up and go smoke Not recommended, but it was so much pressure that I say, well, I need to smoke now, so I smoke. I come back, he offers draw and then I have a new, fresh look at the position and I'm winning. I'm winning, and and I won this game. I shared first place. I got probably my biggest prize in my chess career Well, at least playing in the Opens, and it was amazing.
Daniel:That's incredible.
Boris:But that's the situation where he was so confident, with the overwhelming advantage on the clock and in position, and he couldn't convert yeah, yeah, that's.
Daniel:That's a great story. It's a great example. I just one more uh question for you about this course, which is that you have a chapter that covers, you know, the defensive prowess of hans nieman. Uh, it's an interesting choice. So what made you choose hans as a player to focus on in your course?
Boris:yeah, there is this interesting story. I came across his game against International Master from Sweden highly recommended, even if you don't have chessable course, maybe people can type I think his last name Pantzar P-A-N-T Z-A-R. R, something like that and he played with the black pieces and basically the position was I remember I was following this game live it was some tournament in Sweden, open, I think Realton Cup maybe and he's absolutely losing. So I already I stopped following because for me it was basically very clear result. And then checking after 30 minutes I don't understand what's going on. So basically it was some kind of he won the position where he had one night for the queen. So in the beginning it was some kind of like I call it mini fortress because it's hard, it's winning, but it's hard to win because of the pawn structure. But then slowly I think, the guy overpressed and he even won.
Boris:So after this game I talked with one of my friends, grandmaster, and I mentioned have you seen this game? And he told me well, you haven't noticed. I mean, he's an amazing defender, it's not the only game. And how about this game? How about this game? So he mentioned a few games and I started to check the material and indeed, and you know what is the most incredible, I would say that most of the players would be really satisfied with the draw, like surviving these games, just getting a draw that amazing. Somehow he wins. This is what something big about him. So he's winning these absolutely lost positions. By the way, recently I haven't seen so many escapes, but back then, when I created the course, I just didn't know which game to select. It was such a big collection of these games. So, fighting spirit, fighting till the end, looking for resources unbelievable yeah yeah, absolutely.
Daniel:That course came out a little bit ago and then, of course, you're choosing what to include in the course even before it's published. Was he the controversial figure then that he is now, when you were choosing to pick his games?
Boris:It's a good question. You know, this idea crossed my mind and then I knew that he's controversial figure when I got this idea and I suggested and I asked this question because I knew also Chessable in the way related to Magnus, so I asked this question and they say well, you know, it's absolutely fine for us, we don't do any politics or stuff like this, so like it's very welcome and I was quite happy. I was quite happy that I found this special topic. So I had this Hans and my personal experience so and I thought it will attract some extra customers for this name.
Daniel:Yeah, sure it definitely catches people's attention. For sure it caught mine. So yeah, that's interesting.
Boris:And, by the way, maybe, if you're interested, I can tell you the story that back in 2000, what it was, 2014 or 15?, 14, probably I've had some experience with Hans, working with him. Oh yes, and you know, I thought that the case is pretty much hopeless. Yes, he was like maybe 22 something, living with parents, like a little bit lazy. I would say he didn't want to work. Just he was asking can you send me this material, like with the openings I will play, played some strange openings. I remember I met him in person and instead of maybe have some discussion, he went to play Backhouse or Bullet, I don't remember. It was during World Open in Philadelphia in, I think, 2015. So I didn't have very high high opinion, to be fair. And then everything has changed, right, so that's yeah, that's funny, that's interesting.
Daniel:Yes, so the other part of your course, resourceful Chess, focuses mainly on counterplay, and I think it's obvious there's going to be some overlap between the subject of defense and counterplay. But in your course you have them split out, as you know, two distinct areas. So how do you see these two subjects interacting in the two volumes of your course?
Boris:So, as we discussed, there are these potential pawn sacrifice, going for active play, when the defending defending suddenly sacrifice comes and you try to distract, maybe, from the attack. So this is one idea, even mud in the waters, like when you create imbalance and suddenly it's objectively lost, but then you have initiative and he has to be precise to neutralize your play. So that's a very important pattern of how you fight in bad positions, how you defend, and this is where I thought it overlaps. It was also the idea of chessable management. So they suggested this and thought it will be very clever. They suggested this and thought it will be very clever.
Boris:And so first, as we discussed, the priority should be if we can create something active. Well, probably there are cases when it's, you know, on the other side, on the flip side, we sometimes people talk well, you just push a little bit and he will collapse himself because he will try to create, to go for active counterplay. He cannot defend passively and it will get even worse. So of course there is this balance that you have to figure out right, but I think that's mainly the idea. So if there is an option maybe to go for activity, even in the price of porn, or maybe exchange sacrifice, so it's really worth considering this.
Daniel:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you brought up a point that I wanted to raise, which is exactly that I mean.
Daniel:I mean, I think the point that I wanted to raise is actually your answer, and I wish I could remember which guest I had talked about this with, but now I've done over a hundred interviews so it's a little hard to remember exactly which guest had said this, but they were a title player and we were talking about the subject of defense, and they made the point of saying that you know, it's like how to get out of a bad situation, whether it's material or position, counterplay something active, like you said, should be looked at first before something just defensive, purely defensive or, you know, maybe a bit on the passive side.
Daniel:And it sounds like you know that's exactly what you're saying. I don't know if there's any like a meaningful distinction here, because something has to come first in volume one, volume two, but counterplay is, you know, like the second part of your course. Was there any, like you know, educational purpose to that? Or is it just splitting them out one and two? I mean, you know, because we're saying that counterplay should be the first thing to basically look for, but it's the second volume of the course.
Boris:Well, it's hard to say. To be honest, it was maybe mostly the marketing decision of the Chessable team.
Daniel:I see yeah, that's fine. I just want to make sure yeah, that's fine.
Boris:I just want to be interested with this course and because I I send them so much material and they, they really uh, the guys who work with me that it was a lot of headache for them how to split this. So I suggested something. They probably didn't like it too much and so then they that was their suggestion, basically how to split.
Daniel:That's fine yeah, so that just just how they chose to split it. I also want to talk about your website, because it offers a lot of opening resources for folks. Can you share a little bit about, like you know, what kinds of opening resources you offer and things?
Boris:like that. So in 2019, I decided that well, since my name mostly associated with chess openings and it's mainly because I have 10 books, this is number one and some people like more advanced. They know that I work with top players and I felt like, well, I should somehow utilize this. And then this is when I got this idea to create site. I mean, I have to admit that it's not very advanced site and there was not so much budget, so it's kind of like a very, very simple site and I started to publish PGN files of different openings. In the beginning, the idea was that I will split it into three different categories. So in the beginning, it was 1,000 to 1,500, and then 1,500 to 1,800, and then maybe 1,800 and further. So that was in the beginning. It was $1,000 to $1,500, and then $1,500 to $1,800, and then maybe $1,800 and further. So that was the idea. Now, after a couple of years, I noticed that most of the people anyway buy now the most advanced option, and then, mainly, I switched to just one level most advanced level because I realized that and this is how I explain to my students as well I think I'm very proud that this I have basically very loyal customers that if they start buying something, it seems like they buy everything, including grandmasters, of course, not mentioning any names, famous YouTubers, everyone that's awesome. So they kind of like keep going and well, I was quite proud.
Boris:I was quite proud what I have been doing, always finding something interesting that maybe not published. Like one of the latest files that was kind of like well, I called it New Sicilian, something that well, it's not exactly new. There were a thousand games maybe, but at least I haven't seen any publication. I might be wrong, but I haven't seen and nobody corrected me. So I have this YouTube channel that people leave comments and they say, well, yeah, nobody mentioned that other platforms have these courses.
Boris:So currently I think there were about 92 files published on different openings. Now, some of them just it's like three different levels, so it's maybe all together, maybe 50 plus, but it's different openings. Everyone can find something interesting if people interested very, very detailed, very, very detailed, like a lot, like a lot of material covered. I always say that you download the file. It will take you many, many years ahead, like you're kind of like you're set for many years with this opening, but of course the theory evolves, but I hope so, so, trying to do my best, as I always did with the books and everything.
Daniel:I see, and these are mostly at the advanced level.
Boris:Well advanced. But I always say even to my students, so that even let's say you are 1600 at this advanced level, because grandmasters buy and they're quite happy with this, but you can take it slowly. Let's say, first time you cover 10 moves, I see, and then you cover, next time maybe you play the game, you again check the file, you revisit the game. Well, next time you cover 15 moves and then slowly, slowly you improve, because even 1600, they wouldn't buy a file if they would just to stay at this level. They want to get 2000 plus.
Daniel:Right, right, right, uh, yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, well, um, we'll have a link for that in the show notes so people can check out your site and look at your opening files and everything that you offer. Yeah, appreciate it. We could do a part two interview, because there's still so much of your your uh chess journey or you're both your competitive career and your educational career that we that we have yet to get to. Um, but for now, uh, I want to close our interview with a segment that I do regularly with my guests a series of fun, fast questions and, uh, my first question for you in that is knights or bishops.
Boris:Yeah, I thought about this question. I know there was one famous coach in Russia who mentioned that I'm very strong playing with queen and knights. Well, it's a very well-known, you know, strong pair. It's like the bishop pair. But overall I probably would take bishops. After all, bishop is 325 points, slash pawns, and knight is 3, and bishop pair is 7. This is what I teach my students, so probably in most of the cases I would take bishops.
Daniel:Great. What's your favorite time control to play?
Boris:Well, since I'm inactive, I would say, like what's the favorite time control to analyze games of my students? I would call it maybe 90 minutes with increment, and you know, just 90 minutes without any additional time. After 40 moves. Recognizing that the chess evolves, everyone is looking for faster chess and it's not the same when I used to play.
Daniel:Right, right. What's your favorite opening to play as white Catalan?
Boris:I'm a Catalan expert. That's my book, that's the cornerstone of my repertoire, that's why I was hired by Kramnik maybe Fabiana as well. So Catalan.
Daniel:Those are great reasons. Yes, what's your favorite opening to play?
Boris:as Black, I would say Grunfeld, I would say Grunfeld. I have been playing it since 1995, since I was taught Grunfeld in Israel. And yeah, I have two books for Grunfeld. And, by the way, only maybe some five years ago somebody told me do you know that Grunfeld is actually reverse Catalan? And I never thought about this. I just love to play Grunfeld, so it's just tempo down, but it's the same moves like Grunfeld.
Daniel:That's funny, since that's your favorite opening to play as well. Yeah, in one word, how would you describe your playing style?
Boris:I would think that I'm a versatile player, like everyone back then. I played, of course, definitely I was considered to be a very strong theoretician, so everyone was like afraid of my open preparation, but I think I was also good in defense, converting materials, so probably a versatile player. And yeah, yeah, what's one book you wish more chess players would read? Converting materials.
Daniel:So probably versatile player and yeah, yeah. What's one book you wish more chess players would read?
Boris:yeah, that's a tough question. So the the book that influenced my chess maybe the most, it was candidates tournament in Zurich 1953 by David Brunstein, I think it's also. As far as I know, it's also translated into English. I was obviously I read this in Brunstein. I think it's also. As far as I know, it's also translated into English. I was obviously I read this in Russian, but I think I'm pretty sure it's translated into English.
Daniel:Who is your favorite player of all time?
Boris:Gauri Kasparov still there, but slowly I'm starting to consider Magnus. You're starting to consider Magnus as well.
Daniel:Magnus, yeah, right yeah yeah, definitely want to consider. If you could play any great player of the past who is no longer alive, who would it be?
Boris:Yeah, that's an interesting question. Maybe I would say Botvinnik Nice. I actually had a conversation with him once in Moscow. But it would be interesting because, yeah, he's considered to be like the chess patriarch in Soviet Union, like positional chess and everything.
Daniel:If you could play any of the top players in the world right now, who would it be?
Boris:Yeah, that's interesting. It would be interesting, maybe against Alireza Firuja. Oh, interesting, because I played against some of them already, like I played against. Would be interesting, maybe against Alireza Firuja, oh, interesting. Interesting because I played against some of them already, like I played against Magnus. I have draw against Magnus, have draw against Kasparov, right, well, I'm thinking about those who I haven't played yet.
Daniel:So yeah, you're one of the few guests that I've had who can scratch off their list. You know a few names already, because they've already played them yes, uh.
Boris:So with good results, draw with kasparov the game and and draw with magnus that's yeah, it's amazing.
Daniel:Yes. If you had to choose a career other than chess, what would it be?
Boris:I'm thinking, not much crossing my mind, but I I think like something in the field of realtor, something oh interesting yes, something well, probably realtor, but maybe also broker or something together, when they brokering and you know kind of helping people to buy houses, something like that and then my last question if a chess genie existed and could grant you any one chess wish, what would you wish for?
Boris:well, well, probably just something very simple playing a world championship match. Very simple, yeah, yes. Well, I actually had a dream. I had an American dream when I came to US in 2014,. My dream was to play US men's championship, for many reasons. First of all, I was fascinated with Chess Club in St Louis. Secondly, the last prize in this event is, I think, twice bigger than it used to be the first prize in Israel, so you know. But then I realized suddenly when I came, I maybe I had some chances rating-wise, maybe. Well, I maybe I had some chances rating wise, maybe. Well, I needed to increase over 2600, but it was close. But then one, two years and we got Dominguez and we got all the Aronian and I realized it's very hard. You just have to be very professional and work on your own chess and unfortunately I had no time with all the private lessons and other projects.
Daniel:Yeah, yeah, that's unfortunate, it's too bad.
Boris:So the next dream is to play under fifth well, senior championship. So that's what I'm looking for A few more years, Okay, interesting.
Daniel:Yes, Interesting. Well, Boris, it's been a great honor to have you on the show. You've had an extraordinary career, you know on every level, and you just have some amazing stories and amazing perspectives and I just really appreciate you taking the time to chat and to be on the podcast and I just want to say thank you so much.
Boris:Daniel, thank you very much. I really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun, great questions, very professional, and I'm looking forward to our second podcast already.
Daniel:Yeah me too. Me too. Perhaps, near that time, we can talk about your plans for the your senior senior championship goals that you've talked about. Well, yeah, it was great talking to you. Thank you so much, boris. Thank you, daniel. Have a nice day. Thanks for listening. This has been a production of my business, adult Chess Academy, and that has a website with the same name. If you want to look for it, you can also find me being way too active on Twitter by searching my username, lona, underscore chess. See you next week.
